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	<title>Comments on: Missile Mystery in Beijing</title>
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	<description>Comments and analyses of important national and international security issues</description>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-11623</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 May 2010 12:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-11623</guid>
		<description>Edited] The &#039;confusing terminology&#039; has somehow been clarified, semi-officially; &lt;a target=&quot;_blank&quot; href=&quot;http://www.ldyx.org/a/liangdanyixing/lunwenzhuanlan/2009/1228/1616.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this authentic account&lt;/a&gt; showed that:

1. Chinese weapon designator system also uses &#039;DF-31&#039; and &#039;DF-31A&#039;, which confirmed that those were DF-31As in the Parade.

2. Chinese system also uses DF-21A/B/C/D, and it says that they were all &#039;successfully developed&#039;, having CEPs from &#039;hundreds of meters to tens of meters&#039;, and can attack targets &#039;from fixed to slow-moving ones&#039;.

&lt;b&gt;Reply: &lt;/b&gt;Thanks for the article (unofficial English translation &lt;a target=&quot;_blank&quot; href=&quot;http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/58320-attention-official-article-admits-df-21-x-has-ability-attacking-moving-target-4.html#post867579&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;). It is attributed to Wang Genbin, deputy director of China Aerospace Science and Engineering Group 4, or what is known as China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) Fourth Academy&#039;s Fourth Design Department. The correct translation of his title apparently is &quot;deputy commander.&quot;

The history of the DF-21 is interesting, and the data largely consistent with John Lewis/Hua Di&#039;s article published in the early 1990. But the 
article does not tell us anything new about the DF-21D capability against &quot;slow moving&quot; targets (probably referring to ship speed), a term frequently used in technical articles to describe research. An interesting &lt;a target=&quot;_blank&quot; href=&quot;http://project2049.net/documents/chinese_anti_ship_ballistic_missile_asbm.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;report on the DF-21D&lt;/a&gt; has been published by Mark Stokes.

I don&#039;t see explicit confirmation that the DF-31A was in the 2009 Parade. I know it was announced, but I still can&#039;t square that the dimensions of the launchers were nearly identical to the DF-31 launchers displayed in 1999. HK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edited] The &#8216;confusing terminology&#8217; has somehow been clarified, semi-officially; <a target="_blank" href="http://www.ldyx.org/a/liangdanyixing/lunwenzhuanlan/2009/1228/1616.html" rel="nofollow">this authentic account</a> showed that:</p>
<p>1. Chinese weapon designator system also uses &#8216;DF-31&#8242; and &#8216;DF-31A&#8217;, which confirmed that those were DF-31As in the Parade.</p>
<p>2. Chinese system also uses DF-21A/B/C/D, and it says that they were all &#8216;successfully developed&#8217;, having CEPs from &#8216;hundreds of meters to tens of meters&#8217;, and can attack targets &#8216;from fixed to slow-moving ones&#8217;.</p>
<p><b>Reply: </b>Thanks for the article (unofficial English translation <a target="_blank" href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/58320-attention-official-article-admits-df-21-x-has-ability-attacking-moving-target-4.html#post867579" rel="nofollow">here</a>). It is attributed to Wang Genbin, deputy director of China Aerospace Science and Engineering Group 4, or what is known as China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) Fourth Academy&#8217;s Fourth Design Department. The correct translation of his title apparently is &#8220;deputy commander.&#8221;</p>
<p>The history of the DF-21 is interesting, and the data largely consistent with John Lewis/Hua Di&#8217;s article published in the early 1990. But the<br />
article does not tell us anything new about the DF-21D capability against &#8220;slow moving&#8221; targets (probably referring to ship speed), a term frequently used in technical articles to describe research. An interesting <a target="_blank" href="http://project2049.net/documents/chinese_anti_ship_ballistic_missile_asbm.pdf" rel="nofollow">report on the DF-21D</a> has been published by Mark Stokes.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see explicit confirmation that the DF-31A was in the 2009 Parade. I know it was announced, but I still can&#8217;t square that the dimensions of the launchers were nearly identical to the DF-31 launchers displayed in 1999. HK</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Loo</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8384</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Loo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8384</guid>
		<description>China has no intention of attacking the US. The Americans have contingency plans for a Taiwan war scenario. The PLA DF missiles are of obvious interest to the US. The Americans are using the pretext of defending freedom and US security to attack other countries including China. That is why with the DF the US will have to think twice about attacking China. Of course Taiwan and the need to maintain US credibility are shams to give an excuse for the Pentagon to beef up the US military. Yes the US will prevail but the price for attacking China is going up. Any US carriers in the Taiwan Straits with hostile intent will be blown up. China is not N Vietnam where the US navy could launch attacks from there.

&lt;b&gt;Reply: &lt;/b&gt;Well, I can&#039;t say I agree with a lot of what you say, much less understand how to reach those conclusions. No one I know here are trying to find a pretext to attack China, but to avoid that misperceptions, suspicion, and misunderstandings lead to a crisis that escalates to military confrontation. I&#039;m sure you can find bad people in the Chinese military as well. HK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>China has no intention of attacking the US. The Americans have contingency plans for a Taiwan war scenario. The PLA DF missiles are of obvious interest to the US. The Americans are using the pretext of defending freedom and US security to attack other countries including China. That is why with the DF the US will have to think twice about attacking China. Of course Taiwan and the need to maintain US credibility are shams to give an excuse for the Pentagon to beef up the US military. Yes the US will prevail but the price for attacking China is going up. Any US carriers in the Taiwan Straits with hostile intent will be blown up. China is not N Vietnam where the US navy could launch attacks from there.</p>
<p><b>Reply: </b>Well, I can&#8217;t say I agree with a lot of what you say, much less understand how to reach those conclusions. No one I know here are trying to find a pretext to attack China, but to avoid that misperceptions, suspicion, and misunderstandings lead to a crisis that escalates to military confrontation. I&#8217;m sure you can find bad people in the Chinese military as well. HK</p>
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		<title>By: xxx</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8343</link>
		<dc:creator>xxx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 06:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8343</guid>
		<description>Obviously, the author had no basic information on the DF-31 when he wrote this article. He needs to go back to check the data of DF-31 and DF-21.

&lt;b&gt;Reply: &lt;/b&gt;Your IP address, Mr. xxx, is in China. Please teach me. I&#039;m more than willing to correct mistakes. HK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, the author had no basic information on the DF-31 when he wrote this article. He needs to go back to check the data of DF-31 and DF-21.</p>
<p><b>Reply: </b>Your IP address, Mr. xxx, is in China. Please teach me. I&#8217;m more than willing to correct mistakes. HK</p>
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		<title>By: dylan</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8260</link>
		<dc:creator>dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8260</guid>
		<description>Mea culpa, I was really replying to a comment (no.2 by JK and the reply by HK) which implied that the presence of the launchers in Beijing meant the missiles must be there as well.  Should have said &quot;JK&#039;s analysis&quot; rather than &quot;this analysis&quot;!

&lt;b&gt;Reply: &lt;/b&gt;I did not imply the missile were there as well. I have no way of knowing that, but I doubt the parade organizers would want a dozen missiles with rocket fuel to roll across the square packed with thousands of spectators. HK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mea culpa, I was really replying to a comment (no.2 by JK and the reply by HK) which implied that the presence of the launchers in Beijing meant the missiles must be there as well.  Should have said &#8220;JK&#8217;s analysis&#8221; rather than &#8220;this analysis&#8221;!</p>
<p><b>Reply: </b>I did not imply the missile were there as well. I have no way of knowing that, but I doubt the parade organizers would want a dozen missiles with rocket fuel to roll across the square packed with thousands of spectators. HK</p>
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		<title>By: sp00ky1</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8252</link>
		<dc:creator>sp00ky1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8252</guid>
		<description>They are clearly different. But hard to say which missles they carry. The DF31A launcher has differences from the DF31:

The carrier tube is longer in the back from the lifts to the end, i think it was extended just at the end. The carrier tube is farther back in the front compared to the other, you can tell this by how it aligns to the wheels on the cab wheel train. With this it does appear to be whats also shown in the fuzzy image in figure 2 as there you can see the gap in between the tube and the cab unlike with the DF31 which is alot less. Unless the cabs wheelbase was lengthened, as its hard to tell due to the picture distances. Not to mention many other smaller changes especially in the launcher tube accessory equipment. Also in the text it states that the tube is 18m and in the image it is 16m, not sure which one is correct.

Anyway interesting article and pictures.

&lt;b&gt;Reply &lt;/b&gt;To me those look like minor upgrades that I would expect might happen to a launcher over the course of ten years, but not the ones that would indicate a different missile system. As for the 18m and 16m, if you read the text again you&#039;ll see that what I point out is that the missile canister appears to be around 16m while Jane&#039;s estimates the DF-31A is 18m. Thus my question: a common launcher or re-display of DF-31? HK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They are clearly different. But hard to say which missles they carry. The DF31A launcher has differences from the DF31:</p>
<p>The carrier tube is longer in the back from the lifts to the end, i think it was extended just at the end. The carrier tube is farther back in the front compared to the other, you can tell this by how it aligns to the wheels on the cab wheel train. With this it does appear to be whats also shown in the fuzzy image in figure 2 as there you can see the gap in between the tube and the cab unlike with the DF31 which is alot less. Unless the cabs wheelbase was lengthened, as its hard to tell due to the picture distances. Not to mention many other smaller changes especially in the launcher tube accessory equipment. Also in the text it states that the tube is 18m and in the image it is 16m, not sure which one is correct.</p>
<p>Anyway interesting article and pictures.</p>
<p><b>Reply </b>To me those look like minor upgrades that I would expect might happen to a launcher over the course of ten years, but not the ones that would indicate a different missile system. As for the 18m and 16m, if you read the text again you&#8217;ll see that what I point out is that the missile canister appears to be around 16m while Jane&#8217;s estimates the DF-31A is 18m. Thus my question: a common launcher or re-display of DF-31? HK</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8251</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8251</guid>
		<description>Would it be possible to analyze the photos and tell (with some degree of accuracy /error) if the canisters were loaded or empty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would it be possible to analyze the photos and tell (with some degree of accuracy /error) if the canisters were loaded or empty?</p>
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		<title>By: dylan</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8233</link>
		<dc:creator>dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8233</guid>
		<description>Err, the assumption that is probably incorrect underlying this analysis is that the cannisters on display in Beijing actually contained missiles.  It seems highly unlikely (for a number of reasons) that they would, as JM points out.

&lt;b&gt;Reply: &lt;/b&gt;Err, no, as I point out in the article it is the launcher that was displayed. HK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Err, the assumption that is probably incorrect underlying this analysis is that the cannisters on display in Beijing actually contained missiles.  It seems highly unlikely (for a number of reasons) that they would, as JM points out.</p>
<p><b>Reply: </b>Err, no, as I point out in the article it is the launcher that was displayed. HK</p>
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		<title>By: JM</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8232</link>
		<dc:creator>JM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 12:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8232</guid>
		<description>Concerning the concentration of launchers in one spot: It could well be that China has only 15 or so missiles, but more launchers (as decoys, test and training vehicles, etc.). So having excess launchers for parade is not necessarily confusing. As long as you cannot look inside the cannisters (let alone the warheads), the presence of the launchers in Beijing tells us relatively little about the Chinese nuclear capacities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concerning the concentration of launchers in one spot: It could well be that China has only 15 or so missiles, but more launchers (as decoys, test and training vehicles, etc.). So having excess launchers for parade is not necessarily confusing. As long as you cannot look inside the cannisters (let alone the warheads), the presence of the launchers in Beijing tells us relatively little about the Chinese nuclear capacities.</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8229</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8229</guid>
		<description>1, The whole problem may come from the fact that we are now using two different systems of weapon designators: what was called &quot;Chinese CSS-6 Mod 2&quot;  (in the NASIC 2009 report) is different from the &quot;DF-15B&quot; (in the Second Artillery&#039;s term) during the National Day parade. It is possible that DF-31A in the Chinese designator system means DF-31 in the IC. The same problem comes when we are talking about seeing &quot;DF-21C&quot;.

2, If there are &quot;less than 15&quot;  DF-31As (or another &quot;less than 15&quot; DF-31s) deployed in China, is it very strange that almost all of the force (&quot;comprise a very large percentage of the total number of DF-31/31As deployed&quot;, as said in the China Brief) is in Beijing during the National Day period?

We were seeing some undeployed missiles, or a significant mistake in DOD and NASIC&#039;s numbers concerning Chinese nuclear force.

&lt;b&gt;Reply: &lt;/b&gt;Terminology certainly confuses. I too find it hard to imagine why China would assemble nearly its entire DF-31 or DF-31A force in one location. The US IC talks about the DF-31/31A being &quot;deployed to units within the Second Artillery Corps,&quot; so it is possible - but unknown - that the ones displayed were new launchers not yet deployed with the units. HK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1, The whole problem may come from the fact that we are now using two different systems of weapon designators: what was called &#8220;Chinese CSS-6 Mod 2&#8243;  (in the NASIC 2009 report) is different from the &#8220;DF-15B&#8221; (in the Second Artillery&#8217;s term) during the National Day parade. It is possible that DF-31A in the Chinese designator system means DF-31 in the IC. The same problem comes when we are talking about seeing &#8220;DF-21C&#8221;.</p>
<p>2, If there are &#8220;less than 15&#8243;  DF-31As (or another &#8220;less than 15&#8243; DF-31s) deployed in China, is it very strange that almost all of the force (&#8220;comprise a very large percentage of the total number of DF-31/31As deployed&#8221;, as said in the China Brief) is in Beijing during the National Day period?</p>
<p>We were seeing some undeployed missiles, or a significant mistake in DOD and NASIC&#8217;s numbers concerning Chinese nuclear force.</p>
<p><b>Reply: </b>Terminology certainly confuses. I too find it hard to imagine why China would assemble nearly its entire DF-31 or DF-31A force in one location. The US IC talks about the DF-31/31A being &#8220;deployed to units within the Second Artillery Corps,&#8221; so it is possible &#8211; but unknown &#8211; that the ones displayed were new launchers not yet deployed with the units. HK</p>
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		<title>By: RAJ47</title>
		<link>http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2009/10/chinaparade.php/comment-page-1#comment-8226</link>
		<dc:creator>RAJ47</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/?p=1738#comment-8226</guid>
		<description>The differences seen are-
1 - The angle of launcher tube. DF31A has it more parallel to ground.
2 - The launcher is slightly behind on the chasis, plz see the gap between drivers cabin and missile launcher. It is more in DF31A.
3 - The hydro-pneumatic elevators (or whatever they are called), looking like shock absorbers, being at the same place in both TELs, DF31A would be easier (meaning faster) to raise to firing position than DF31.
4 - The cannister seems to have become sleek, especially the base and the cover, probably the reason for lesser length.

Well, the SAC&#039;s senior official would not have made a mistake but they all are just enjoying the confusion in everybody else&#039;s mind.
DF41 seems to be only a myth. The number of axels have never matched in all its images. One of the &lt;a target=&quot;_blank&quot; href=&quot;http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZzqM/R9NLNcNLc6I/AAAAAAAAAqo/lQFCYcVwYuU/s1600-h/df41_2.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;DF 41 images&lt;/a&gt; clearly shows that the missile cannister will need to bend if the chasis is turning like this. The rear wheels turning in opposite direction looks very odd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The differences seen are-<br />
1 &#8211; The angle of launcher tube. DF31A has it more parallel to ground.<br />
2 &#8211; The launcher is slightly behind on the chasis, plz see the gap between drivers cabin and missile launcher. It is more in DF31A.<br />
3 &#8211; The hydro-pneumatic elevators (or whatever they are called), looking like shock absorbers, being at the same place in both TELs, DF31A would be easier (meaning faster) to raise to firing position than DF31.<br />
4 &#8211; The cannister seems to have become sleek, especially the base and the cover, probably the reason for lesser length.</p>
<p>Well, the SAC&#8217;s senior official would not have made a mistake but they all are just enjoying the confusion in everybody else&#8217;s mind.<br />
DF41 seems to be only a myth. The number of axels have never matched in all its images. One of the <a target="_blank" href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZzqM/R9NLNcNLc6I/AAAAAAAAAqo/lQFCYcVwYuU/s1600-h/df41_2.jpg" rel="nofollow">DF 41 images</a> clearly shows that the missile cannister will need to bend if the chasis is turning like this. The rear wheels turning in opposite direction looks very odd.</p>
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