S. Prt. 110-20
EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE
SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE
TOGETHER WITH JOINT SESSIONS WITH THE
SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE
(HISTORICAL SERIES)
=======================================================================
VOLUME XIX
__________
NINETIETH CONGRESS
first session
1967
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
90th Congress, First Session
J.W. FULBRIGHT, Arkansas, Chairman
JOHN SPARKMAN, Alabama CLAIBORNE PELL, Rhode Island
MIKE MANSFIELD, Montana EUGENE J. McCARTHY, Minnesota
WAYNE MORSE, Oregon BOURKE HICKENLOOPER, Iowa
ALBERT GORE, Tennessee GEORGE D. AIKEN, Vermont
FRANK J. LAUSCHE, Ohio FRANK CARLSON, Kansas
FRANK CHURCH, Idaho JOHN J. WILLIAMS, Delaware
STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
THOMAS J. DODD, Connecticut CLIFFORD P. CASE, New Jersey
JOSEPH S. CLARK, Pennsylvania JOHN SHERMAN COOPER, Kentucky
Carl Marcy, Chief of Staff
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
110th Congress, First Session
JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware, Chairman
CHRISTOPHER J. DODD, Connecticut RICHARD G. LUGAR, Indiana
JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts CHUCK HAGEL, Nebraska
RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota
BARBARA BOXER, California BOB CORKER, Tennessee
BILL NELSON, Florida GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
BARACK OBAMA, Illinois JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland JIM DeMINT, South Carolina
ROBERT P. CASEY, Jr., Pennsylvania JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia
JIM WEBB, Virginia DAVID VITTER, Louisiana
Antony J. Blinken, Staff Director
Kenneth A. Meyers, Jr., Minority Staff Director
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
90th Congress, First Session
RICHARD B. RUSSELL, Georgia, Chairman
JOHN STENNIS, Mississippi MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine
STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri STROM THURMOND, South Carolina
HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington JACK MILLER, Iowa
SAM J. ERVIN, Jr., North Carolina JOHN G. TOWER, Texas
HOWARD W. CANNON, Nevada PETER H. DOMINICK, Colorado
ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia
STEPHEN M. YOUNG, Ohio
DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii
THOMAS J. McINTYRE, New Hampshire
DANIEL B. BREWSTER, Maryland
HARRY F. BYRD, Jr., Virginia
Charles B. Kirbow, Chief Clerk
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
110th Congress, First Session
CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Chairman
EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts JOHN W. WARNER, Virginia
ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia JOHN McCAIN, Arizona
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut JAMES INHOFE, Oklahoma
JACK REED, Rhode Island PAT ROBERTS, Kansas
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama
BILL NELSON, Florida SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
E. BENJAMIN NELSON, Nebraska JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada
EVAN BAYH, Indiana SAXBY M. CHAMBLISS, Georgia
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, New York LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
MARK J. PRYOR, Arkansas ELIZABETH DOLE, North Carolina
JIM WEBB, Virginia JOHN CORNYN, Texas
CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri JOHN THUNE, South Dakota
MEL MARTINEZ, Florida
Richard D. DeBobes, Staff Director
Mike Kostiw, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
Pages
Preface.......................................................... IX
Future Hearings, January 11...................................... 1
The World Situation, January 16.................................. 39
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State
Subcommittees and Hearings Procedures, January 24................ 113
Minutes, January 24.............................................. 129
Minutes, January 25.............................................. 130
Minutes, January 26.............................................. 131
The Situation in Indonesia, January 30........................... 133
Testimony of Marshall Green, U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia
Background Briefing on Disarmament Problems, February 3.......... 159
Testimony of Richard Helms, Director of the Central
Intelligence Agency
Status of Development of Ballistic and Anti-Ballistic Systems in
U.S., and Briefing on Non-Proliferation Treaty, February 6..... 193
Testimony of Dr. John S. Foster, Jr., Director of Defense
Research and Engineering; and Hon. William C. Foster,
Director, Arms Control and Disarmament Agency
Military Assistance to Latin America, February 6................. 217
Testimony of Gen. Robert Porter, Southern Military Command
Strategic Implications of Antiballistic Missile Defense
Deployment/Limitations on Use of Chemical and Bacteriological
Agents in Warfare/Sales of Military Equipment by the United
States, February 7............................................. 245
Testimony of Cyrus R. Vance, Deputy Secretary of Defense; and
John T. McNaughton, Assistant Secretary of Defense for
International Security Affairs
Minutes, February 27............................................. 274
Minutes, February 28............................................. 275
Minutes, February 28............................................. 276
Minutes, March 1................................................. 277
Sales of Military Equipment by United States, March 2............ 279
Testimony of John T. McNaughton, Assistant Secretary of
Defense for International Security Affairs
Policy Implications of Armament and Disarmament Problems, March 3 289
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State; and Adrian S.
Fisher, Deputy Director, Arms Control and Disarmament
Agency
Minutes, March 6................................................. 311
Minutes, March 13................................................ 312
Arms Sales to Iran, March 14..................................... 313
Testimony of Henry J. Kuss, Deputy Assistant Secretary of
Defense for International Logistics Negotiations
Minutes, March 16................................................ 330
Minutes, March 20................................................ 331
Briefing on Africa, March 28..................................... 333
Testimony of John Palmer II, Assistant Secretary of State for
African Affairs
Minutes, March 30................................................ 366
Minutes, April 3................................................. 367
Additional Military Assistance to Pakistan, April 5.............. 369
Testimony of William J. Handley, Acting Assistant Secretary
of State for Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs
Minutes, April 6................................................. 391
Minutes, April 13................................................ 392
Minutes, April 13................................................ 393
Minutes, April 14................................................ 394
Minutes, April 18................................................ 395
Minutes, April 19................................................ 396
Minutes, April 20................................................ 397
Minutes, April 21................................................ 398
Minutes, April 24................................................ 399
Minutes, April 25................................................ 400
United States Troops in Europe, April 26......................... 401
Testimony of Robert S. McNamara, Secretary of Defense; and
Nicholas DeB. Katzenbach, Acting Secretary of State
Minutes, April 26................................................ 414
Briefing on Yemen and Greek Situations, April 28................. 415
Testimony of Lucious D. Battle, Assistant Secretary of State
for Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs
Minutes, May 2................................................... 442
Minutes, May 2................................................... 443
United States Troops in Europe, May 3............................ 445
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State; and Eugene V.
Rostow, Under Secretary for Political Affairs
Minutes, May 4................................................... 457
Discussion of Military Assistance to India and Pakistan, May 5... 459
Testimony of Lt. General Joseph F. Carroll, Director, Defense
Intelligence Agency
The Situation in Poland, May 15.................................. 471
Testimony of John A. Gronouski, U.S. Ambassador to Poland
Discussion Regarding the Secretary of State's Testimony, May 16.. 505
Minutes, May 16.................................................. 520
Minutes, May 16.................................................. 521
Briefing on Deployment of Antiballistic Missiles and Non-
Proliferation Treaty, May 18................................... 523
Testimony of Adrian S. Fisher, Deputy Director, Arms Control
and Disar- mament Agency
United States Foreign Policy With Respect to the Middle East and
Vietnam, May 23................................................ 539
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State
Briefing on the Middle East Situation, June 1.................... 587
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State; and Robert S.
McNamara, Secretary of Defense
Minutes, June 5.................................................. 624
Minutes, June 5.................................................. 625
Briefing on the Middle East Situation, June 7.................... 627
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State
Minutes, June 8.................................................. 657
Briefing on Vietnam, June 8...................................... 659
Testimony of William J. Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Korea
Briefing on the Middle East Situation, June 8.................... 697
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State
Briefing on the Middle East Situation, June 9.................... 705
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State
Minutes, June 20................................................. 729
Military Assistance to India and Pakistan, June 22............... 731
Testimony of Jeffrey C. Kitchen, Deputy Secretary of State
for Politico- Military Affairs
Minutes, June 22................................................. 738
Minutes, June 27................................................. 739
Briefing on Glassboro Talks, June 28............................. 741
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State
Minutes, June 29................................................. 775
Minutes, July 10................................................. 776
Minutes, July 11................................................. 777
Briefing on the Congo Situation, July 11......................... 779
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State
Minutes, July 12................................................. 825
Minutes, July 13................................................. 826
Minutes, July 25................................................. 827
Foreign Assistance Act of 1967, July 26.......................... 829
Testimony of Robert McNamara, Secretary of Defense
Minutes, July 27................................................. 854
Minutes, August 1................................................ 855
Minutes, August 22............................................... 856
Minutes, September 12............................................ 857
Minutes, September 22............................................ 858
Minutes, October 2............................................... 859
Minutes, October 6............................................... 860
Minutes, October 10.............................................. 861
Minutes, October 11.............................................. 862
Minutes, October 23.............................................. 863
Minutes, October 23.............................................. 864
Minutes, October 31.............................................. 865
Minutes, October 31.............................................. 866
Minutes, November 1.............................................. 867
Minutes, November 2.............................................. 868
Need for Open Hearing with Secretary Rusk on U.S. Policy Toward
Southeast Asia, November 7..................................... 869
Testimony of Dean Rusk, Secretary of State
Minutes, November 16............................................. 926
Briefing on the Vietnam Situation, November 16................... 927
Testimony of Elsworth Bunker, U.S. Ambassador to South
Vietnam
Minutes, November 17............................................. 972
Motions Regarding Testimony by the Secretary of State, November
30............................................................. 973
Minutes, December 7.............................................. 991
Minutes, December 8.............................................. 992
Minutes, December 12............................................. 993
Briefing on Greece and the Middle East, December 14.............. 995
Testimony of Lucius D. Battle, Assistant Secretary of State
for Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs
Briefing on News Stories on the NLF in Saigon and the U.N.,
December 14.................................................... 1027
Testimony of Nicholas DeB. Katzenbach, Acting Secretary of
State
Minutes, December 15............................................. 1065
APPENDICES
A. Committee on Foreign Relations Publication for 1967: Hearings,
Committee Prints, Senate Documents and Reports................. 1067
B. Volumes Published to Date in the Historical Series............ 1071
PREFACE
----------
``You certainly are getting more than your share of
crises,'' one senator commiserated with Secretary of State Dean
Rusk during an executive session of the Foreign Relations
Committee in 1967. Although national attention necessarily
focused on the war in Vietnam, where the United States had sent
a half million troops and spent billions of dollars to fight a
war that had come to seem endless, foreign policy crises were
erupting around the world that year at an alarming rate.
Members of the Foreign Relations Committee displayed
mounting skepticism about Vietnam, discounting the overly
optimistic reports they received from the State Department and
from U.S. Ambassador to South Vietnam Elsworth Bunker.
Increasingly, committee members looked toward a negotiated
settlement as more likely than a military victory in Vietnam.
Because of such attitudes, the administration of President
Lyndon B. Johnson kept the committee at arm's length on
anything related to the war. Secretary Rusk cancelled scheduled
appearances to testify so often during the year that Senator
Albert Gore, Sr., complained of seriously impaired
communications between the committee and the State Department.
Instead of Vietnam, therefore, the committee devoted its
hearings to the state of the world, from a coup in Greece to a
war in the Middle East and a rebellion in the Congo. However,
members always kept in mind the potential connections between
the Vietnam war and events occurring elsewhere.
Committee members worried that America's preoccupation with
Vietnam could serve as an invitation to troublemaking in Asia,
Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. Committee chairman J.
William Fulbright cited involvement in Southeast Asia as having
hindered the United States' response to the ``Six-Day War''
between Israel and its Arab neighbors. ``I do not hesitate to
make a decision that the Middle East is far more important to
the security of this country than Vietnam,'' Senator Fulbright
lectured Secretary Rusk--who earlier that year had assured the
committee he did not foresee a war in the Middle East. In his
own explanation of the world situation, Secretary Rusk insisted
that the United States was fighting communist aggression where
it existed, not communism as an ideology in the abstract. He
wanted to assure the committee that despite the war, the
Johnson administration sought detente with the Soviet Union,
but committee members remained dubious. By the year's end,
Senator Claiborne Pell chided an assistant secretary of state
that the administration seemed to see everything that happened
anywhere as ``one vast Communist plot, and that what went on in
any part of the world had its effect in any other part of the
world because the strings are all being pulled from one
place.''
Through its hearings, the committee also demonstrated
concern over the ``militarization'' of U.S. foreign policy.
Subcommittees devoted a great deal of time to examining arms
sales in the Middle East and in the Indian-Pakistani
territorial disputes, and followed closely the development of
anti-ballistic missile systems and the negotiations for nuclear
non-proliferation. Senator Eugene McCarthy complained that the
Johnson administration had embraced an arms sales philosophy
that unless the United States sold arms to other countries it
would lose its influence over the policies of those countries.
Vietnam and its larger implications caused committee
members to ponder the Senate's constitutional responsibilities
over foreign policy. When President Johnson sent planes to the
Congo, Senator Fulbright raised the possibility of the
president sending as many troops as he wanted without
congressional authorization. ``I do not see that it would be
entirely inconsistent with Vietnam or any other place,'' the
chairman said to Secretary Rusk. ``How many did you send to the
Dominican Republic? You sent 22,000. You could have sent
100,000 if you wanted. I do not know why you could not sent
100,000 or 200,000 into the Congo if you thought it
desirable.'' He added, ``I do not know where you draw the line
here.'' During another closed committee meeting, Senator
Fulbright complained to his colleagues: ``I get fed up with
being told we are committed to something all the time,'' simply
because the president said the nation is committed. That was
not what he meant by commitment, Fulbright asserted: ``I think
the commitment is something that is taken by the Congress and
the Executive, not just a unilateral action.''
Committee members of both parties agreed that a Republican
Policy Committee report had asked the single pertinent question
of the year: what is our national interest in Southeast Asia?
For all their efforts, the committee could never get a
satisfactory response from the Johnson administration.
Admitting his mistake in supporting the Gulf of Tonkin
Resolution and his assumption that President Johnson had not
intended to widen the war, Fulbright lamented that the war had
``grown so gradually that we never have been able quite to get
the full impact of where we are going.'' That sense of drift
and helplessness pervades these hearings.
The selection of transcripts for these volumes represents
the editor's choice of the material possessing the most
usefulness and interest for the widest audience. Subheads,
editorial notes, and some documents discussed in the hearings,
are added to bring the events into perspective. Any material
deleted (other than ``off the record'' references for which no
transcripts were made) has been noted in the appropriate
places, and transcripts not included are represented by minutes
of those sessions, in chronological sequences. Unpublished
transcripts and other records of the committee for 1967 are
deposited at the National Archives, where they are available to
researchers under the access rules of that agency. Some
transcripts may require further declassification procedures.
In accordance with the general policy of the series,
portions of the volumes were submitted to the Departments of
State and Defense and the Central Intelligence Agency for
review and comment.
The Foreign Relations Committee extends its appreciation to
the Senate Committee on Armed Services for its cooperation in
approving the release of those sessions in which its members
participated.
This volume was prepared for publication by Donald A.
Ritchie of the Senate Historical Office.
JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr.
FUTURE HEARINGS
----------
Wednesday, January 11, 1967
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Foreign Relations,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:20 a.m., in
room S-116, the Capitol, Senator J.W. Fulbright (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Chairman Fulbright, and Senators Sparkman, Morse,
Gore, Church, Symington, Dodd, Clark, Pell, Hickenlooper,
Aiken, Carlson, and Mundt.
Also present: Mr. Marcy, Mr. Kuhl, Mr. Holt, and Mr.
Henderson of the committee staff.
The Chairman. I think the committee will come to order. We
have a quorum here.
Congratulations to everybody and the committee in
particular. We have a quorum the first morning.
reduction of u.s. forces in europe
Well, gentlemen, the main purpose of this is just to
discuss a variety of things. One of the letters I suppose we
ought to take up first is Senator Mansfield's. I have a letter
here signed yesterday addressed to me about Senate Resolution
300 which was introduced last summer regarding how a
substantial reduction in U.S. forces permanently stationed in
Europe can be made without adversely affecting either our
resolve or agreement to meet our commitments under the North
Atlantic Treaty.
This letter was addressed to me personally, asking if I
wished to join in its sponsorship, but the reason I bring it up
here----
Senator Mundt. Who wrote the letter?
The Chairman. Mike Mansfield. He introduced the resolution
last summer.
The reason I am bringing it up here is not whether I should
sign it or not but is about its procedure. He proposes, I
think, to take this up on the floor without any committee
dealing.
Now, when this matter was considered before on increasing
from two to six, we had extensive hearings. This committee and
Armed Services.
As a procedural matter it seems to me very bad not to send
this kind of resolution to some committee because, well from
your point of view, no Republicans participated. This came out
of the Democratic Policy Committee. If we start the precedent
of resolutions going direct to the floor from the Policy
Committee, it seems to me it is very objectionable.
What I thought, if the committee thought well of it, was
for the committee to authorize me to write a letter requesting
that it be submitted to this committee.
Senator Morse. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a very
brief comment that I have prepared on this matter. It is my
hope that we can confirm the Mansfield resolution relative to
troop assignment to NATO----
The Chairman. Speak a little louder. I cannot hear you.
Senator Morse. It is my hope that we can confirm the
Mansfield resolution relative to troop assignments to NATO and
that it will be referred to this committee. Since the committee
held extensive hearings last year on NATO, additional hearings
may not be necessary although there have been rather dramatic
changes in Germany and in German attitudes toward Eastern
Europe since our hearings. In any case, I think the resolution
should be referred to this committee and reported out before it
goes before the Senate.
role of the policy committee
The Party Policy Committee should not become a substitute
for a standing legislative committee, and I agree with the
Chairman that I think that a resolution of this importance
should be submitted to the committee first and not go to the
floor of the Senate.
As you know, that has been my position for many years in
the Senate, that committees should not be by-passed. You always
have the protection, if it becomes necessary, of sending a
legislative matter to a committee under instructions and you
always have the protection of discharging a committee if the
committee seeks to bury the legislation.
But I speak respectfully, I think if this is still the
position of the majority leader, and I am surprised it is,
because I thought I read in the paper some time ago a statement
attributed to him that he was not insisting on the matter going
directly to the floor.
The Chairman. I make it clear this letter does not insist
on it. But I thought it was his idea before that it do that,
and I was anticipating this question and that is why I brought
it here. He did expect it to be taken up, I think, last summer
without going to the committee.
Senator Morse. He did. He made this argument, but I only
want to say, and I close, that I would support the suggestion
of the chairman that the letter be sent to the majority leader
advising that it go to the Foreign Relations Committee to hear
it.
In fairness to the Armed Services Committee, I want to say
it may very well be that it should go to the Foreign Relations
Committee and then to the Armed Services Committee or possibly
that we have joint hearings on it, but I do not think that the
Foreign Relations Committee should give up what I think is its
right to pass on this resolution because of its clear foreign
policy import.
Senator Sparkman. Mr. Chairman, I fully agree with what has
been said, with what you say and what Senator Morse says.
problems with joint hearings
Personally, I would just like to see it referred to this
committee with the idea that we could act on it and then refer
it to the Armed Services Committee, if we felt proper, rather
than having joint hearings. Those hearings were pretty painful
proceedings.
The Chairman. There are too many people.
Senator Sparkman. Yes, and if it is authorized I will make
a motion to the effect that the chairman be instructed to
follow that course.
The Chairman. Yes, that is in order.
Is there any further discussion?
Senator Hickenlooper?
military v. foreign policy
Senator Hickenlooper. I have some reservations on this.
First, I thoroughly agree that under no circumstances should
this--if we can prevent it--resolution go directly to the floor
from a strictly party committee such as the Republican Policy
Committee or the Democrat Policy Committee, or anything else. I
think it is a terrible practice.
Number two, I would like to hear a little bit more
justification why it should go to this committee rather than
the Armed Services Committee. I think maybe it should, at least
we should have something to say about it, but it seems to me
that the question of the reduction in force in Europe under an
alliance agreement, and that is what it is over there, that is
primarily either a professional area or a top executive area
discussion on national defense.
Senator Morse. Would you yield, Bourke, on that point?
Senator Hickenlooper. Yes, I just want to have some
discussion, I am not committed.
Senator Morse. I only make a one sentence comment. The
original commitment came from this committee. The original NATO
commitment was a Foreign Relations Committee matter.
Senator Hickenlooper. We do not handle the military conduct
of the war; we may sign a treaty.
Senator Morse. But there is no question of military under
this treaty because it is the relationship to foreign policy.
Senator Sparkman. I think this is wrapped up in foreign
policy implications.
a political matter
The Chairman. I think so, too. To me this is not a war.
This is political judgment as to the relationship between
Western Europe, ourselves, and Russia. The reason for NATO
really was fear of invasion of Western Europe by Russia and
this entails, in my view, essentially a political judgment as
to what those relations are now and whether or not there is
justification for the continuation of, well, NATO as such, and
certainly how much you do in pursuance of NATO.
I would think as between the two this is far more a
political matter at this stage than it is military.
Frank was the NATO man last year. What do you say?
Senator Church. Well, I would agree with that, Mr.
Chairman, particularly inasmuch as the level of troops to be
maintained there turns on political considerations fully as
much as military considerations. In fact, the major arguments
for retaining so large a force had been based in recent years
not upon a military assessment, but rather upon the political
consequences of reductions, particularly West Germany, and of
course the whole Gaullist attitude toward the disposition of
American forces is a political one.
It seems to me that it is all inextricably bound into
foreign policy considerations.
Senator Clark. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The Senator from Pennsylvania.
INTERNAL SENATE POLITICS
Senator Clark. I would certainly support this motion, but I
am a little bit concerned about the internal Senate politics of
this and wondering whether we cannot get off on perhaps a
little better foot in this session than we have sometimes in
the past. Whether it would be desirable for the chairman before
he writes a letter to sit down with Dick Russell and Senator
Mansfield and see if some amicable arrangement agreeable to all
three could be worked out.
Now, Stuart is not here; he wants to come. Maybe I am not
as good a mind reader as I think I am, but he is on both Armed
Services and this committee, and I suspect that he would be a
little bit upset if we were to assert sole jurisdiction.
John Sparkman will remember that at that meeting of the
NATO Parliamentarians in Paris in November, which he and I both
attended, there were a couple of pretty belligerent fellows
from the House of Representatives who really kind of took the
point of view that NATO is primarily a military alliance. They
were not much in favor of any efforts to get a better
relationship either with de Gaulle--you remember at that
briefing, John, those fellows gave Chip Bohlen and Cleveland
such a bad time, and I know that the NATO Parliamentarian group
is kind of split on the political committee which would rather
switch than fight and the military committee which wanted to
relieve tensions. I believe it might be worthwhile to see if we
cannot work out an arrangement with the Armed Services.
I agree that joint hearings are kind of rough. There are
too many people. But maybe some sort of genius can come along
which would work out a friendly relationship, either refer it
here first and there second, or get some kind of an agreement
that a committee of the two committees should sit, just in the
interests of hoping that the 90th Congress will not get off on
yackety yack between the Armed Services and the Foreign
Relations Committees which we are going to have on Vietnam
anyway.
The Chairman. That is a good suggestion. I would like to
work it out, and I do not think you meant to be exclusive.
Senator Morse. Not at all. I made the point maybe we ought
to have joint meetings.
The Chairman. I would object because they are unwieldy and
difficult to conduct when you have got that many people. And I
would think it would be better to have it here and then Armed
Services.
What do you think about that? I think Joe has a point.
Senator Sparkman. I think it is a good idea.
The Chairman. I do not want to have a row and have a
contest right off the bat. Do you think it would just be better
I talk to Mike Mansfield about it? But I would like to be able
to say the committee feels it ought to come here.
Is there anybody who does not feel that way?
ADVISE THE LEADERSHIP
Senator Morse. I think, Mr. Chairman, that you ought to
talk to Mike and also talk to Everett Dirksen and probably the
two of them together. I am sure they do not agree but
nevertheless I think that it is important that the minority
leader be advised, too.
Senator Clark. Do you not think you ought to talk to Dick,
too?
Senator Morse. I think that was agreed.
The Chairman. How do you feel about that? I do not want to
say. Do you feel they ought to come here?
USURPATION OF CERTAIN ACTIVITIES
Senator Hickenlooper. I feel we have an interest in it, but
I feel that probably 60 percent of the interest is in the Armed
Services Committee or should be, and I go a step further. We
have noticed in the last year or two or three the usurpation of
certain fields of activity that ought to be in the Foreign
Relations Committee taken up by other committees, and we get
our tail over the dashboard a little bit on that. I guess there
is not much we can do about that. But we can, of course--this
may be the committee's area of responsibility, but we are
getting into other fields, I suppose. I just feel that 40
percent of it is probably here and 60 percent belongs to Armed
Services Committee. I think both committees ought to take a
look at it, but not with a joint meeting. I agree it is almost
impossible to get any satisfactory results.
CREATE TWO SUBCOMMITTEES
Senator Morse. It is possible, Mr. Chairman, to have one of
Joe's suggestions where you can have two subcommittees or a
subcommittee of each of the two committees hold the hearings
and report to their full committee.
The Chairman. That is a possibility. What does the
committee think about that?
Senator Clark. Why do you not explore it with Mike and
Dick?
The Chairman. I will be glad to explore it. I wanted an
expression of how you feel about it. Do you all, Karl, do you
think we have an interest?
Senator Mundt. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think in this
particular instance we have a better claim to jurisdiction than
the Armed Services Committee.
The Chairman. That is what I wondered.
Senator Mundt. What Frank says is exactly right. It is the
political implications we are going to listen to mostly. They
are not going to talk about the fear of an immediate invasion
from Russia. If there have been any military affairs
implications it must be connected with the war in Vietnam in
some way, about the deployment of troops. But I do not want to
get into a quarrel with the other group either.
I would think we could pass some kind of a resolution
saying that the Foreign Relations Committee feels that there
should be hearings, whether we want to have participation or
something, and I do not know how far we have to go in
nursemaiding the Armed Services Committee on these matters.
It is perfectly all right to consult, but I think you would
be fortified if you went there and said, ``We are going to have
them. We didn't want to have a quarrel. Do you want to have
subcommittees, joint committees?''
Do you want them to come in tandem or how, but I definitely
feel we ought to have a hearing.
Senator Carlson. I agree with the chairman on it.
Senator Aiken. We ought to look it over. The military
aspect, as Karl says, will probably relate to deployment of
troops that might be taken out there.
The Chairman. It is just more what you do with the troops,
whether or not you go here or over to Vietnam. That is a matter
which is military.
Senator Aiken. We have a political and economic situation
involved.
Senator Sparkman. Mr. Chairman, I think this idea of having
two subcommittees could work, but I think it would be
preferable to have it before the full Foreign Relations
Committee, although that could be explored.
The Chairman. Well, then, if I understand it correctly I
will take it up and talk to the majority leader about it, and I
assume we will probably then talk either with him or separately
with Dick Russell and the Republican leader.
Well, that disposes of that.
TESTIMONY OF SECRETARY RUSK
I think you have already had notice that the Secretary,
Secretary Rusk, has agreed to come in executive session on
January 16 and in open session on January 23. He called me and
asked, requested, that our hearings not go longer than a full
morning, that is when it is in open, because of the strain and
the lights and so on. He is assuming there will be television--
I do not know whether there will or not. I guess there will;
there usually is when he appears. And I said that I thought
that was a reasonable request. He said he would rather, because
of the strain and the lights. So I said we would agree to have
it run one day up until 1 o'clock, say.
Mr. Marcy brings up a question that is always a difficult
one. He says that Senator Symington cannot come on the 16th. He
wishes it to go on the 17th, and this creates a problem that if
we wanted to run over in executive session--what I said about
going in the afternoon applies only to open session with lights
and all that. It does not apply to executive session. He would
not be free on the afternoon of the 17th.
Senator Pell. Excuse me, I would like to bring up a point
here, too, if I can.
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Pell. And that is I realize it is a good idea for a
few people questioning because it goes through with greater
ease, but when meetings are scheduled for Monday morning at 10,
it is very difficult sometimes for those of us who, if we have
a speaking engagement--I may be in the minority on this, I do
not know if anybody else shares the same view, and as a matter
of routine when we have the choice and initiative, could not
meetings be scheduled for Tuesday mornings and not Monday
mornings?
The Chairman. Well, Tuesdays are our regular meetings for
the conduct of our regular business such as I have got--I have
got several other items I am coming to; for example, the
consular agreement mentioned last night. Katzenbach came and
said he wanted us to take it up, and we have hearings. If you
mean we will not just utilize Monday, it is going to make it
very difficult. That means Friday, too.
Senator Pell. Fridays it does not mean because people do
shove off, they shove off in the afternoon but maybe I am the
only one, in which case I withdraw my point, but----
The Chairman. I would like to accommodate the members. How
do you members, all of you, feel about Monday? We are going to
have an awful heavy schedule because there are a number of
things I am going to mention in a minute.
Senator Mundt. I would rather have Monday than Friday.
Senator Hickenlooper. We have other meetings and it could
be Tuesday.
Senator Aiken. Get it over with.
Senator Pell. I am in a minority so I withdraw.
The Chairman. You do not live far away so you cannot get
back on Monday.
Senator Pell. I made two speaking engagements that day.
The Chairman. You do not speak on Sunday, do you?
[Discussion off the record.]
Senator Pell. So I am in the same condition on the 23rd
where I probably will not be able to be here.
The Chairman. Well, you know, as big a committee as this
is, there is going to be somebody, I think, nearly every day,
and we just almost have to proceed in some way.
Senator Pell. Yes.
The Chairman. With that understanding, the executive is on
the 16th and open on the 23rd.
SIZE OF THE COMMITTEE
By the way, did the Steering Committee take action on the
size of the committee?
Senator Clark. Yes; this has to still be off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
APPEARANCE BY SECRETARY MCNAMARA
The Chairman. McNamara, we have contacted McNamara. His
position is simply that he would like to appear before Armed
Services before this committee, and I wrote to Russell and he
feels that way. So he will appear there first and the date has
not been set, has it, Marcy, you have not heard any further
about it?
Mr. Marcy. No, sir.
The Chairman. It is not that he does not want to come, but
simply he would like to appear in public before that committee
and then we will have him as it is agreeable after that.
I mentioned the consular agreement. The President, as you
know, mentioned it last night. Katzenbach has already----
Senator Hickenlooper. He mentioned so much last night I
must have missed that.
The Chairman. It was buried down----
Senator Sparkman. With east and west trade.
The Chairman. But Katzenbach came up and said they are
anxious to proceed with it.
The question is what do you think about hearings? We have
had some hearings. It is my understanding that--in fact, I have
some letters here, limited to official use, from Douglas
MacArthur referring to Mr. Hoover's attitude toward this, and I
understand Mr. Hoover feels that his former testimony may have
been--I do not know whether you would say distorted a bit. He
is not adamant against this at all. If I understand it
correctly he simply made the observation that it would entail
additional surveillance, I guess you would say. But he is not
of the view that it should not be done is the way I understand
it. You can look at it if you like.
MISINFORMATION ON CONSULAR TREATY
Senator Carlson. I want to say on this consular treaty, our
people may be getting misinformed. I am getting a lot of mail
and we ought to have some additional hearings.
The Chairman. The Liberty Lobby has mounted a strong
campaign against it, relying I think primarily on the former
testimony of Mr. J. Edgar Hoover.
Senator Carlson. If we have a hearing, it may clear up some
of this.
The Chairman. I think we should, too. Does everybody
believe that?
Senator Sparkman. I do.
The Chairman. Any objection?
Senator Clark. If I may make one very brief comment, when I
was in Russia in November and before I went, when I talked with
Dobrynin\1\ in a briefing, the Russians really could not care
less about this consular treaty because they think it is so
much more to our advantage than it is to theirs, with which I
agree, that they are not pushing particularly hard. I think it
is very much to our advantage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ Soviet Ambassador to the U.S. Anatoly Dobrynin.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Chairman. I do, too. I think it is to our advantage.
Senator Sparkman. I think it would ease a lot of pain if
you could get a modification of Hoover's statement because it
has been----
Senator Dodd. Is this on the troop commitment to Western
Europe?
The Chairman. We have discussed that. We wanted to bring it
up after you got here. We discussed that at some length.
SENSE OF THE POLICY COMMITTEE
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I almost mentioned in the
caucus yesterday but I did not, the Democratic caucus, that I
am fairly certain that it was the sense of the majority, if not
all of the members of the Policy Committee, that this should be
referred to a joint committee of the Armed Services and Foreign
Relations Committee, and when the majority leader did not bring
it up, I mentioned it to somebody who was sitting there, who
was on the Policy Committee, and he said he understood
Mansfield was going to take it up with you as to what would be
the preference. But I know that my feeling, as the only member
of both committees, was that it should go before a joint
committee of Armed Services and Foreign Relations.
It is clear that it involves both committees very
fundamentally and very definitely, and in their mission, you
might say, so I hope it would be agreeable to this committee.
The Chairman. We have just discussed it. It is agreeable, I
mean in the sense of jurisdiction. There was quite a strong
sentiment if you got both full committees together it is
unwieldy. We suggested that it either go to the committees
successively, one and then the other, or a joint subcommittee
so you do not have so many people at one time where it is
unsatisfactory.
Senator Symington. I only wanted to report to you the way
it was left in the Policy Committee.
The Chairman. What would you think of it going to this
committee first and then that committee?
Senator Symington. I think that would be wrong. I would
rather see a joint subcommittee.
The Chairman. You would rather have a joint subcommittee.
Senator Symington. Yes, because there is so much work
involved.
The Chairman. Take eight or ten of this committee and join
with them together.
Senator Symington. That is right; this committee has a
tremendous amount of work and we have this draft law, as well
as appropriations and authorizations. There was some
resistance, I think it is fair to say, to doing it at all
because of the amount of work involved. This time I think we
ought to either fish or cut bait, because of these tremendous
expenses abroad. They are absolutely incredible under the
circumstances in the amount of money they are asking for in the
Far East and the amount of bodies they are asking for.
A PSYCHOLOGICAL BARRIER
Senator Morse. Mr. Chairman, may I say--Tom and Stu were
not here--I would much prefer the joint subcommittee to going
to one committee or the other first because, let us face it,
there is a psychological barrier there, people being what they
are, and if it comes here first, people on the Armed Services
Committee, some, will psychologically be disturbed. If it is
the other way, there will be some here. I think a joint
subcommittee would be much better than going to one committee
first and then the other. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, that
having a joint hearing of the two full committees is very
unwieldy. I do not think it is necessary
After all, each full committee will take it up on the basis
of the report of their subcommittee.
Senator Clark. Mr. Chairman, can I put in a plug, in
passing, for a more frequent use of subcommittees, either ad
hoc or the standing subcommittees, in order to expedite our
work?
The Chairman. Mr. Marcy and I have been talking about that
and we will talk about it further, I mean with the committee. I
think you are right, we ought to use that more. If I understand
it and everybody is agreeable to the Senator from Missouri's
suggestion preferring the joint subcommittee meeting.
Senator Morse. On Joe's subcommittee comment, I would like
to say that later in the morning I have on my agenda to raise
with the committee a subcommittee matter. I will cover it then,
and I quite agree with Joe.
RESCHEDULING SECRETARY RUSK'S TESTIMONY
Senator Symington. Can I bring up something you passed on?
I have a very important engagement next Sunday, almost as
important as the U.N. organization in 1945, when the Kansas
City Chiefs are going to show the National Football League they
have got the thing sewed up as much as they think they have.
With that premise, I was hoping that perhaps Secretary Rusk
could come on Tuesday. I talked to Carl about it and I talked
to the Secretary about it, because it is impossible for me to
get back here in time in the morning. I just thought, I would
hope, that you could because there is no way I can get back at
10 o'clock on Monday morning. I could get back in the
afternoon, but I would hope--the Secretary said it would be all
right with him if it would be all right with you. He did on the
17th. I spoke to him and he spoke to Carl, and I asked Carl to
speak to you.
Senator Pell. I subscribe, for the reason I already said,
to what Stuart said. Monday morning at 10 is very difficult.
Friday mornings at 10 we are around. But Monday morning is very
difficult.
Senator Symington. I am going to try to hold all my
engagements to weekends the way this thing happened last year,
but this makes Monday morning difficult.
Senator Aiken. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me any member of
this committee who cannot be here Monday morning can afford to
buy a Sunday paper and learn everything that we will be told
Monday morning.
Senator Sparkman. Did you see Bart Starr's picture, you
know, big color?
Senator Symington. I would like to ask this question. If it
is going to be a question that he could come back in the
afternoon on Monday but he could not do it on Tuesday, then if
I can get here in time for Monday afternoon, could we have an
agreement that he will be back Monday afternoon?
The Chairman. Oh, sure.
Senator Symington. I withdraw my objections.
The Chairman. That was one of the main reasons we preferred
Monday was the fact he could be here in the afternoon because
it is likely we would not get through with him in any case.
Senator Morse. Mr. Chairman, could I be the devil's
advocate for just a moment?
The Chairman. Yes.
SENATORS ACCOMMODATING THEMSELVES TO COMMITTEE SCHEDULE
Senator Morse. I am very fond of the Senator from Missouri,
as he knows. I am talking now of any relationships to any
requests that have been made. It is my opinion that the
efficiency of this committee was greatly interfered with last
year because of the generosity of our chairman in trying to
accommodate the personal requests of members of the committee.
I think this is the time for us to adopt a procedure policy at
the beginning of the session as follows: Namely, that although
we would like to have people at our meetings that cannot be
there, we have just got to accommodate ourselves to the
committee schedule, and, if we cannot be there, we cannot be
there. But I do not see, Mr. Chairman, how you can run this
committee if you never knew whether or not a date you have set
is one that you are going to be able to carry out.
I would like to suggest that as a matter of policy, we
decide this morning that if we cannot be at the meetings, that
if just too bad, but we are going to have to accommodate
ourselves to the schedule.
Senator Symington. There is one point about that if the
Senator will bear with me, because a great many of this
committee are members of the Finance Committee on both sides of
the aisle, which I am not, and I find there is a great deal of
adjustment of the dates on the Finance and Foreign Relations
Committees. Inasmuch as I am the sole member on Armed Services,
I hope my beloved friend from the State of Oregon will not
object to working it out. Even when I am here, I get badly
stuck between two----
Senator Morse. You missed my point. My point is that the
chairman has got to work out what should be our schedule of
hearings. He has to do it with other committees and find out
what our membership and conflict is with other committees. But
my point is he has to work out a schedule and we have to follow
the schedule.
Every time you get an exception, may I say, for X or Y on
this committee, you inconvenience A and B. They may not say
anything, but every time you change it A and B are discommoded
and I think we have to have a schedule to follow.
CONFLICTS WITH OTHER COMMITTEES
The Chairman. May I say I talked to Marcy at length about
this. One reason for Monday is that it is one of the days where
practically no other committees meet and we thought--Tuesday is
a favorite day for all committees, and you run these conflicts
you are talking about, membership in other meetings.
Take Senator Gore. He is a very high ranking man on
Finance. He likes to be there, and I like to have him there
because I cannot go to it. They always meet on Tuesday, is that
not correct, practically always, on other days. Mondays was one
of the reasons why it looks inconvenient from your point of
view. It is free from those other conflicts more than most days
of the week.
Senator Pell. The only question that comes to my mind is
the planning ahead. Sometimes you want to make one day in your
home area; should it be a weekday, should it be a Monday, or
should it be a Friday? We have to weigh these things. As a rule
I thought--I have always got the feeling that Monday was
probably the better day to choose as opposed to Friday. Monday
morning, as happens in Senator Symington's case, is the
earliest to get back.
The Chairman. He is only going to be out there once. He
will be very disillusioned about that.
Senator Pell. Friday, on the other hand, people may leave
but they always leave in the afternoon.
Senator Morse. We have to cancel some meetings. I canceled
a meeting up in George Aiken's state. I was supposed to lecture
up there in the university. I notified them I could not do it
and I canceled it.
The Chairman. I would like to do the best I can with the
committee. I need guidance. We thought this was an idea. I will
do anything that the consensus believes in.
Senator Carlson. I just want to say this. I want the
chairman to set the meetings. I am going to have to miss some.
But I do not want anything to interfere with this meeting next
Sunday in San Francisco. I want the Senator from Missouri to be
there and bring back the bacon.
PROBLEMS TRAVELING TO THE WEST
Senator Mundt. I think what Wayne said makes a lot of
sense. I would like to add one little codicil. If you will
follow the practice of what you have done here of giving us a
little advance notice, like a week, we can adjust to your
schedule. I agree you cannot change your schedule for an
individual member without interfering with some other member.
We have an altogether different problem out West from what Clay
has. He cannot be back Monday morning. I cannot get back home
unless I leave Friday morning, so it varies. Set it and give us
a week or so notice and we will adjust, like Wayne canceled a
meeting.
The Chairman. I am certainly open to suggestions, and Mr.
Marcy has been around here a long time. He sort of thought
Mondays and Tuesdays--Tuesdays are our regular days and Monday
would fit in as well as any day with anybody. But I do not want
to be arbitrary about it. As far as I am concerned, it is about
half dozen of one and six of the other.
Senator Symington. One more point I have following Karl's
point, too. If we do try to go out on weekends, which is what I
am going to do this year, then I respectfully say because of
the problem of getting back from your state and my state that
Tuesday and Wednesday would be better than Monday and Tuesday.
If you come back Sunday, you fly all day Sunday night which
cripples you a little bit and you can get back sometime Monday,
and then Tuesday and Wednesday it gives you a chance to get out
Friday. It takes you a little longer than it does me.
Senator Hickenlooper. Are you establishing a Tuesday to
Thursday club?
Senator Symington. Thursday is Armed Services.
[Discussion off the record.]
The Chairman. I will talk to Mr. Marcy further. Personally,
it does not make much difference to me. I am perfectly
agreeable to any way. I would just like to accommodate as many
as possible and get as many people here. We did pretty well
last year.
THE SPACE TREATY
Let me go over a few other things. The space treaty is one
which we anticipate will be signed this month and they will, I
know, they have already mentioned it, want it acted on quickly
because of their--they think it is psychologically important.
Katzenbach has mentioned it, and so that is another matter
which I am sure we will have hearings on. This is what I meant
a moment ago. We are going to have to utilize more than Monday
and Tuesday. This is just starting with Rusk. I think we are
going to be Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday very likely when you
get into these other matters that I mentioned.
[Discussion off the record.]
HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES
The Chairman. Then we have a few other things. These things
bother me, no end. I wonder what you all think or should we
just forget about them. I get these letters all the time. They
come here you know, there are--I mean on the human rights
things, what do you all think about those? Should we forget
them or should we act on them? You have been to the U.N.--by
the way, I think we ought to have a time set aside--I want to
hear what the Senator from Idaho has to say about his
experience in the U.N. But this is a matter particularly
relating to the U.N. What do you think about it?
Senator Church. Of course there is a good deal of feeling
up there that is adverse to the United States on this matter
because although we have voted finally for the approval of
these conventions, we have never ratified any of them. As time
has passed, more and more comment, adverse comment, has
developed against us on the ground that we are not really for
these conventions and the proof of it is that, although we go
through the motions in the U.N. where they have been approved
by very large majorities, we have failed to ratify these
conventions and make them a part--make them binding treaties.
I have not studied the conventions very carefully, but I
think with the possibility of certain reservations that may be
necessary, we could proceed with hearings, obviously secure the
ratification of some of the conventions without any difficulty.
Senator Dodd. Is the Genocide Convention one of those?
Senator Church. Yes, it is one of those. But I think if we
were to move on any one, perhaps the one that would encounter
the least difficulty, it would be helpful to us with the U.N.
We really do not care about these and we know the African and
Asian countries are quite--they put a lot of store in these
conventions.
Senator Sparkman. When you refer to the human rights
convention, is that an old one or was it passed in the U.N.
either this or last year?
Senator Church. This relates, it relates back several
years.
The Chairman. It is an old one, the one I had in mind.
Mr. Marcy. There are three of those that have been up here
since, in the Kennedy regime--yes, they came July of '63. There
is one on the convention of political rights for women. There
is another one, the convention concerning the abolition of
forced labor. There is a third, a supplementary convention on
the abolition of slavery, the slave trade, an institution of
practices similar to slavery, and then there is the genocide
convention, which has been with us since 1949.
Senator Sparkman. Those three that you mentioned
specifically though, they are relatively new.
Mr. Marcy. They are, yes.
Senator Sparkman. I think they were adopted in that
preceding session of the General Assembly. The genocide is old,
and I think there is a human rights with it also, adopted way
back in '57.
DIFFICULT FOR OTHER NATIONS TO UNDERSTAND U.S. POSITION
Senator Church. Just a reading of these, particularly
reference to slavery and women's rights and that kind of thing,
it is very difficult for many of these countries to understand
why the United States with all our talk of democratic rights
and individual liberties and equality and so forth cannot find
it possible to ratify conventions against slavery.
Senator Hickenlooper. One reason they do not understand
some of those things, they do not understand the American
system of government. They do not understand these treaties can
abrogate or replace under certain conditions some of the
provisions of our Constitution.
Senator Church. I know.
Senator Hickenlooper. For one I am not for letting the
African countries run this country through emotion or
otherwise. They have been doing it for a little while, and I
think it is time we stopped letting them be influential on
these things.
May I say most of these conventions, I think, can be worked
out, as Frank said, and made satisfactory.
Senator Sparkman. I was going to ask if we should act
favorably on these last three, and I understand or from what I
have heard about them, they are more or less--they are more or
less unobjectionable. Would that ease your situation?
Senator Church. John, I think anything that would break the
ice to show that we are prepared to follow through, and we will
hold hearings, and I think ratification of one or two of these
would be extremely helpful to the United States.
Senator Sparkman. I think a couple of them could be done,
maybe three of them if I heard correctly about them. But so far
as the old human rights and the genocide, those old ones, there
are about three of them are there not, two or three, I just do
not believe there is any chance.
Senator Church. Forget the old ones and take the three most
recent ones.
Senator Church. We have some constitutional problems, as
Bourke said, and we have to look at them. But there is a
possibility of ratification of some of them.
THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION AND THE U.S. CONSTITUTION
Senator Pell. I would like to also, Mr. Chairman, having
had some contact with the U.N., put in a strong plug of support
for Frank's view, and I would like to particularly hope we
would not put out a hand on considering the genocide convention
because I think it is the most important one in the whole
crowd. I think the genocide convention is as important as it
was when it was considered in the late forties, and I would
hope very much indeed we would consider it.
Senator Hickenlooper. Have you studied what it will do to
the Federal Constitution?
Senator Pell. I studied it, I read it, and I realize the
problems.
Senator Hickenlooper. That is what has been holding it up
all these years.
Senator Pell. I am well aware of it.
SUBCOMMITTEE SITUATION
Senator Morse. I think here is the place where you could
assign to a subcommittee the consideration of this matter to
report to the full committee, for example, under the direction
of Senator Church. Let us face it, you cannot begin to handle
all the things that are going to come before this full
committee, if the full committee retains jurisdiction over all
of them. I think this is as good a place as any for me to renew
my proposal of last year that the full committee should approve
and authorize a program of activity for its subcommittees. The
Mansfield resolution, the Vietnam hearings, the outer space
treaty are items that will occupy the full committee, along
with others. The final report of the Committee on the
Reorganization of Congress shows this committee held far more
full committee hearings in the 88th Congress than any other
Senate committee. We held 196. The next high number was the
Commerce Committee with 127. But Foreign Relations had only 33
subcommittee meetings in the 88th Congress whereas Commerce had
116.
The full committee will have a heavy schedule of major
business in 1967. But I do not think our activity should be
limited to what the full committee can handle.
The arms races in Latin America and the Middle East are
possibilities for such a subcommittee. So is a full review of
the Alliance for Progress and many other items that could be
handled either under existing subcommittees, or special ad hoc
committees.
Mr. Chairman, let us face it with the kind of a setup we
have in this committee for your subcommittees, they are going
to be appendages, in my judgment, with very little
effectiveness. I speak most respectfully because of my high
regard for our staff, but this staff cannot handle full
committee business and subcommittee business.
This committee has, in my judgment, unlike most committees
in the Senate, never sought to get the financial support, the
staff support, that a Foreign Relations Committee ought to
have. I renew my suggestion that you take these subcommittees,
you recognize that their staffs be enlarged, that they be given
staff, under the supervision of the chairman and the
professional director of the staff, Mr. Marcy.
LATIN AMERICAN SUBCOMMITTEE
But let me as a special pleader tell you about my problem
in the Latin American subcommittee. I cannot possibly carry on
what needs to be done on the Latin American subcommittee if I
am going to have to rely on the existing staff. Carl Marcy and
Pat Holt and Lowenstein and the rest of them cannot possibly
give to me the professional assistance that I need to conduct
the kind of hearings that ought to be conducted on Latin
America. Alliance for Progress ought to be gone into.
I want to say that I have already had two conferences with
Assistant Secretary Sol Linowitz, who by the way, has made a
tremendously favorable impression on me. He talked to me before
the President sent him to Latin America. He talked to me after
he came back. I want to have an early meeting of the
subcommittee in the late afternoon in which I would invite the
full committee, to which I would always invite the full
committee if I am given jurisdiction to conduct some of these
things, and have him brief us. I think he is terrific in his
understanding already of Latin American policy.
But I want to say, Mr. Chairman, we are just kidding
ourselves if you think that these subcommittees of this
committee are more than facades. We have no real jurisdiction.
We have no staff, we have no financial resources, and I would
propose a complete reorganization of the subcommittee setup,
under the control of the Chairman, but with authority for us to
go ahead and conduct the studies that the full committee will
never get around to conducting.
I think what is needed, Mr. Chairman, we cannot do it this
morning, but you ought to get Carl Marcy and his staff to work
with some of us on various plans for a reorganization of
subcommittees. I would like to see not only my committee, but I
would like to see the NATO committee, I would like to see the
other subcommittees, start subcommittee hearings this year that
amount to something.
Senator Clark. Would you yield for just a second?
Senator Morse. I am all through. I yield.
COMPARISON TO LABOR COMMITTEE
Senator Clark. I would like you to comment to the chairman
about the experience you and I both had with the Labor
Committee where we could not possibly get through the workload.
Senator Morse. That is probably why it makes me a biased
witness. We have on the Labor Committee real jurisdiction given
to the subcommittees. We have our staff, and I think, for
example, you check them for security, you approve of them on
this committee, but you give these subcommittees the needed
staff they need to do this job.
Let us face it. Marcy and his associates just cannot be of
service to these subcommittees and be of service to the full
committee to the degree that we are going to need their service
unless you are willing to make the fight to enlarge the
subcommittee staffs with some jurisdiction given to the
chairman of each subcommittee under your direction, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Sparkman asked to comment. He has to
go. Did you want to comment on it?
Senator Sparkman. Well, I merely say this. I have always
inclined toward as many meetings by the full committee as
possible for the consideration of matters. But I realize there
is a lot of truth in what the senator says, particularly with
reference to the time element and also with this problem that
we have of getting a quorum present because of conflict with
other committees.
But any way we go at it we are going to have our hands
full.
Senator Morse. Sure.
Senator Sparkman. That is all I care to say.
The Chairman. Senator Gore?
THE DISARMAMENT SUBCOMMITTEE
Senator Gore. I wanted to raise a question about a
subcommittee, the Disarmament Subcommittee, of which I happen
to be the chairman. The most interesting and entreating
paragraph in the president's speech last night was the one
which seemed to me to be addressed directly to the Soviet Union
rather than to us, and that is on the antimissile program. Here
is a disarmament question per se, and if it would be agreeable
with the subcommittee, with the full committee, I would propose
to have some hearings on this. However, it is matter of such
overweening importance, I would not wish to go into it if the
full committee wishes to do so. If the full committee can find
time to do so, fine. But it seems to me here is something of
mutual interest to the United States and to the Soviet Union,
the two countries being the only ones with the technological
competency to create such systems, and yet this has been a
decision that has been procrastinating now for many, many
months. How long it can safely be postponed without reaching
some agreement is a matter, I think, of urgency.
Of course in my view it would be far preferable that the
United States and the Soviet Union mutually agree to abstain
from such a costly and wasteful expenditure, but it is very
dangerous to this country, in my view, to procrastinate until
the Soviet Union may suddenly have a fait accompli and we are
left second.
So it seems to me this is a subject which either the full
committee or the subcommittee should examine. I am willing to
see either done, and I want to submit it to you.
Senator Clark. Mr. Chairman, I would like to support Albert
as a member of this subcommittee. I think this is probably the
most important single foreign policy matter that confronts us
today, a good deal more important than things that are
considered to be vital.
ANTIBALLISTIC MISSILE SYSTEMS
If we get ourselves into another escalation of this arms
race by the placement of antiballistic missiles around Moscow,
Leningrad, and Washington, and New York, the total cost is
going to be well over 20 billions of dollars.
Senator Symington. Eight months of the Vietnamese war.
Senator Clark. It is absolutely and fully for either
country to do it, and I think a skillful agreement pushed by
this committee could get us off the hook because it is not
outside of the Soviet's interests either.
The Chairman. That is one thing that pleased me last night
because he decided two things. From the intelligence community
it is my best information they do not believe that the Soviets
are very far along on this ABM at all. The only one that is
being currently pushed is around Moscow. It has very limited
possibilities and it is the only one, and I think he is quite
right in taking a further look. It is my impression that is
what he has in mind in the meantime, to do the best he can
diplomatically to try to----
Senator Gore. I raise no critical comment. I say this is
just a matter of such overweening importance that either this
committee or the subcommittee should go into it.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, may I say a word?
THE AMOUNT OF WORK
First I agree without any reservation of any kind with the
position taken by the Senator from Oregon. In fact, the Chair
will remember I presented this to him sometime back.
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Symington. Because in my opinion this is the most
important committee, so long as it does not get subordinated to
the executive branch, in the Congress of the United States.
Now knowing Senator Gore, I think it would be a wonderful
thing if he could really get his teeth into this disarmament
thing.
You can do it as well as anybody around, but you have so
doggone much else to do.
The Armed Services Committee is a very important committee,
especially because it authorizes well over 60 percent, I think,
now of the budget, the United States budget. We could not do
anything that really meant anything if we did not have some
major subcommittee like Stennis's Military Preparedness
Subcommittee and Jackson's Military Construction Committee. The
Military Preparedness Subcommittee has a complete staff, with a
great many members, and they are all excellent people.
Now, everything is done just like when we testified. I used
to testify from the executive branch to committees. The
chairman of the committee is always the chairman of any
subcommittee, if he wants to be there. At times the chairman
would come in. If Mahon has a meeting and Cannon would come in,
he immediately would chair the meeting.
But from your standpoint, your health, the amount of work,
the way the world is today, I just do not think you can take it
and at the same time do a good job without impairment to your
health. I just could not be more serious about this.
One other point; just before I left, Doug MacArthur came
down to see me, and he was very upset about the Middle East.
That is the little subcommittee I happen to be the chairman of,
and he told me all about it and he said he felt that the
Israelis made a very serious mistake.
VISIT TO THE MIDDLE EAST
Well, I came back from the Far East last week through the
Middle East, and putting it mildly, in my opinion, they sure
did make a serious mistake. I spent a couple of days with Luke
Battle in Cairo, who is a very bright fellow and seemed to be
fully up on it, and has an excellent staff and then I went up
and had a long talk with Hussein in Jordan, who in my opinion
fully expects to be assassinated. He is our one great friend we
have out there.
I talked to Levi Eshkol and I did not pull any punches, and
I said, ``This is going to hurt you a lot more than anything
you have done since the state was formed in 1948.''
I talked to Abba Eban, I talked to General Moshe Dayan who
is out, the military hero.
I then stopped to talk in Athens--I spent a good many hours
with Walworth Barbour, the ambassador to Israel.
I went to Athens, and I had another break. In Athens is an
ambassador, a seasoned fellow who was formerly an assistant
secretary of state. Phil Talbot, our ambassador, and I spent a
good many hours with him, and he said, ``You see, the story
going around the Middle East and based on my experience is just
plain murder,'' he said. ``The Israelis attacked Jordan because
they knew Jordan was a friend of the U.S., but they did not
attack Syria or UAR, especially Syria, because they felt they
were friends of the Soviets,'' and also my impression was very
definitely that the UAR is moving quietly but definitely into,
further into, the Soviet bloc.
Well, these things are the kind of things, just thinking
out loud, if you could have some hearings on and just to get
information, because I noticed since I have got back that
everything that I did in Israel was very well covered by the
press, pictures in my own home town paper and that kind of
stuff, whereas there was none of it, you might say, on the Arab
side.
I am not choosing up sides. I do think they made a bad
mistake on this and their arguments are very specious as to why
they did it. I do think if we have any friend in the Arab
world, it is Hussein, and I do think he is in very serious
trouble.
So these are the kinds of things that if you held some
hearings, I think you could bring out and get a better grasp
of.
Just like I would sure like to see Albert get into this
disarmament thing and have some hearings about this situation,
because actually, without violating any security or anything,
the hearing that you, Bourke, and I went to the other day, I
was impressed with the fact that the information we got was not
coordinated or was not the same as the information released
recently by the Secretary of Defense to the American people on
that particular subject.
So you just have a lot of information floating around, and
if you do not fragment this committee into subcommittees with
some authority and some staff, always subject to the approval
of you and the full committee, I just do not think you can do
the job the way the world is today. End of statement.
COMMITTEE'S USE OF SUBCOMMITTEES
Senator Morse. I would like to have further discussion of
it at our meetings after the evidence is brought in. I want to
stress what Stu said in his last statement. My proposal does
not involve any independence of the subcommittees. My proposal
involves your approval in your capacity as chairman, and it
involves the approval of the full committee with regard to the
subject matters taken up. But once assigned to the
subcommittee, then the subcommittee will do what it does in
other committees, it acts for the full committee and reports
back to the full committee.
You know I never have hearings without sending each one of
you a letter inviting you to come to the hearings. I have not
talked to the staff. I have my information from other sources,
so I do not think it would be proper for me to involve the
staff in the inquiries that I have made. But I would like to
get all sides of it and all the facts.
I think you will find that of the major committees of the
Senate, the Foreign Relations Committee is the most
understaffed. The Foreign Relations Committee in a sense has
sort of a closed staff, a very small number of people, highly
qualified. There is no reason why a subcommittee should not be
authorized to select a subcommittee staff of two or three
people representing--serving both the majority and the minority
of the subcommittee as qualified as the people on the full
committee staff, with an expertise on the work of that
subcommittee, in the jurisdiction of that subcommittee.
SIZE OF THE COMMITTEE STAFF
My question to you is: Why is it that the Foreign Relations
Committee maintains as small a staff as we maintain when we are
up against the State Department and the Pentagon building with
almost unlimited staff to draw on? Why have we kept this staff
as small as we have kept it in comparison with other staffs?
Take the Labor Committee. We far exceed this committee, Armed
Services Committee, Stu has already stated.
I just want to say part of our problem is we do not have
the assistance that we need as members of this committee to do
our job, and I think we ought to change the staff policy of the
committee.
The Chairman. Well, I am very glad to hear this discussion.
What do you think over here on this side about it, Bourke and
George?
Senator Hickenlooper. I think you run a tremendous danger
just like other committees have run. I think a lot of these
committees have run just clear out of the reservation on their
subcommittees, vast staffs that they have set up, and they
become autonomous subcommittees practically. I think it is hard
to justify it except to give a lot of jobs to a lot of people
and a lot of autonomy to a lot of folks.
That is just the practical answer. You have asked me and I
tell you.
The Chairman. I want to know----
Senator Symington. Would you feel that way about it if you
had a Republican President and were chairman of this committee?
Senator Hickenlooper. I had thought about it during eight
years of the Eisenhower Administration.
The Chairman. George, what do you think?
Senator Aiken. Mr. Chairman, I try to practice what I
preach. I find in my own office that if they pushed up a little
bit to get their work done, they do a whale of a lot better
work than they do if there are too many people in the office.
Nobody wants to do it if they have one too many. But if they
are pushed up they take it and go and do it.
REPORTS OF THE LATIN AMERICAN SUBCOMMITTEE
Senator Hickenlooper. What Senator Morse said about his
Latin American Subcommittee, I have been on that subcommittee.
I have been on it ever since it was set up. I read every report
Pat Holt has put in about the investigations of these countries
in Latin America. I think they are more profound and more
penetrating than any subcommittee hearing that we could have
here on that subject.
Now, I don't mean to say we should not----
Senator Morse. But those very reports ought to be the basis
for a thorough and intensive study and investigation of the
subcommittee.
Senator Hickenlooper. He is very thorough and his
observations over the years have been very accurate.
Senator Morse. With all due respect to Pat Holt, he is no
substitute for the Senatorial responsibilities of the members.
Senator Hickenlooper. No.
Senator Morse. That is what you are going to make it if you
are going to turn the investigation over to the staff members.
Senator Hickenlooper. Not until there is reason to think
the staff member is inaccurate.
Senator Morse. But the point is he doesn't begin, his
reports don't begin to cover the type of study I am talking
about.
BACKGROUND ON STAFF AND SUBCOMMITTEES
Mr. Marcy. Senator, I might just remind the committee on a
little background on this.
In 1958, a subcommittee was created, of which Senator
Sparkman was chairman, to look into the whole staff problem. At
that time the committee, that is the subcommittee, recommended
to the full committee, that the present structure continue to
exist. At that time, it pointed out that the staff had six
professionals and eight clerical employees. The final
conclusion, except insofar as the subcommittee recommended the
addition of one employee to assist in the coordinating
functions in connection with the visits of distinguished
foreign visitors, that is Miss [Milrae] Jensen, it did not
believe that there should be any additions to the staff at the
present time.
Now, that was in 1958.
Senator Clark. Nine years ago. The world has sure changed
since then.
The Chairman. May I say, last year we utilized, I thought
very effectively, five ad hoc subcommittees, assigning certain
jobs to them, and they did a lot of work and reported a lot of
bills. The tax conventions, in particular, and claims
convention, legislation under Senator Sparkman.
I think we have got to move in some degree in this
connection. It is a question of how much, in my opinion, and
also it is not easy to get good qualified staff people. You
look around here and it is hard to get them, the ones that are
really qualified for this kind of work like our professional
staff.
Senator Pell?
BRINGING STAFF TO COMMITTEE MEETINGS
Senator Pell. There is another problem here along the line
of what Wayne said, which is that this is the only--it maybe a
very good idea, I haven't made up my own mind--but this is the
only committee, I believe, in the Congress where you can't
bring your own staff people in with you, and so when you have a
continuing responsibility on a specific subject that you are
following it leaves you a little scattered, because there is no
staff man you can talk to.
The Chairman. Harry Byrd never allowed one of my staff to
go to the Finance Committee. I don't think they do under any
circumstances.
Isn't that right?
Senator Dodd. We don't in Judiciary.
The Chairman. It is the custom.
Senator Dodd. We don't do it in Judiciary.
The Chairman You do not?
Senator Dodd. No.
The Chairman. I don't think it is peculiar at all.
Senator Pell. I am sorry.
The Chairman. Senator Dodd?
FOCUS ON BIG PROBLEMS AS A TOTALITY
Senator Dodd. I don't know whether it is improper or not
but I would like to hear from the staff, what they think about
this.
The Chairman. Sure, it is not improper. We have talked
about this before.
Go ahead.
Mr. Marcy. Well, Senator, this, as the members know, comes
up about every two or three years and it seems always to boil
itself down to a very fundamental question as to whether the
committee wants to focus on fairly big kinds of problems as a
totality, which is the way the committee has generally done, or
whether it wants to break up into sort of a series of
subcommittees, each going in sort of a different direction.
Senator Symington. That is not so.
Mr. Marcy. I might say that the staff has for some time
thought that it might be advisable to set up one or two, we
thought mostly in terms of one, one subcommittee which would be
kind of a continuing thing with a separate staff. It would be
assigned to specific kinds of things.
I think, for example, the problem would be illustrated if
we tried to hold hearings during the next two months on, say,
the subject of the Middle East, disarmament and the Alliance
for Progress. I think they need to be approached in sort of
separate way.
AD HOC SUBCOMMITTEES HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL
Senator Church. Mr. Chairman, I am generally in sympathy
with the position of the Senator form Oregon and the Senator
from Missouri. I think the experiment of the ad hoc committees
has been a rather successful one.
Furthermore, I don't think this committee is getting its
work done functioning as it has been functioning over the
years. I think that is quite evident in terms of the things we
haven't taken up, and in terms of the extravagant amount of
time we have had to spend on foreign aid and that sort of
thing.
So that we are not really penetrating many of these
questions as thoroughly as we should.
I think that in light, and this is no reflection on the
staff, I think this is the finest professional staff that I
know anything about, but in light of our experience with the ad
hoc committees, I don't see why we couldn't retain for the full
committee the most important things that we want to look at as
a whole committee, and give some of these subcommittees
assignments of a substantive character. Let them conduct
hearings; let them bring in their recommendations, and print
hearings for the full committee to review.
Senator Morse. Certainly.
Senator Church. And the full committee has the final say.
Set it up in such a way that we won't proliferate all over the
place. Establish the limits and give the chairman of the full
committee the final say concerning the work of the
subcommittees which they would take up.
Senator Morse. That is all I have asked for.
Senator Church. I mean this is a perfectly reasonable
request.
Senator Gore. Mr. Chairman, may I make a comment?
The Chairman. Yes.
COMMITTEE HAS GAINED IMPORTANCE
Senator Gore. I think we are picking ourselves to pieces
here. I think introspection is good, but I would like to call
attention to one thing. We had a quorum this morning. Two years
ago the Chairman was complaining nobody ever attended meetings.
This committee has attained an importance in the last year that
it hasn't had in a long time. I think hearings before the
American people not only rehabilitated this committee in its
importance, but did more than anyone thing has done in a decade
to restore the co-equal status of the Legislative Branch with
the Executive. The public hearings we had, whether you agree
with what was said here or there or disagree, had an impact on
the American people no other committee of either house of
Congress has done since I have been a member of the body, which
has been 28 years now.
So I think that while we are finding fault with ourselves,
let us recall that what the committee as a whole did last year
was the single most important thing that this or any other
committee, in my opinion, has done in a long time.
So let us improve through ad hoc, through subcommittees,
through staff, but let us not forget that the most important
thing is this committee as a whole, playing its constitutional
function in the open before the American people.
Senator Church. I agree with that.
HAVE A SUBCOMMITTEE HANDLE NATO MATTERS
The Chairman. Let me say one thing. Last year I was more
than willing to have a subcommittee handle NATO and we got to
talking about it and it looked like we were downgrading NATO if
we don't have a full committee.
Remember that?
Should it be a full or subcommittee? I was for it and I
intended it for it. You went over there and when we got down
there they put it up to me, ``If you do that, it will look as
though you are not really interested in NATO,'' so they put the
pressure on me. I had to do it. That is what happened. I was
all for it.
Senator Church. That may have been a subject----
The Chairman. I mean this is what you often run into. On
these other things, the things I mentioned, there were five
subcommittees. No one thought those were so important that it
had to be full, and they went off very well and you did the
work well.
We can do that more. I am perfectly willing to do it. We
have already talked about this morning a subcommittee to meet
with Armed Services on these troops in Europe. I am all for it.
I think it would be a good idea.
Senator Church. I just wanted to say one thing. I should
think some of these U.N. conventions, for example, could be
taken up by a subcommittee.
The Chairman. I do, too.
Senator Church. And hearings held and printed hearings
distributed.
The Chairman. I do, too. I am all for this.
I do think if we move in this direction--last year I said
we will try these ad hoc and see how they work and if they work
well, we will do more of it.
I am all for it. I think we do have a couple of more staff
men, but they are hard to get. The committee did look over a
lot of them and you would be surprised how difficult it is to
get good ones.
Senator Clark. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make two
points.
EXERCISE OVERSIGHT FUNCTION
First, I would thoroughly agree the committee is not
getting its work done as expeditiously as it could and I think
the ad hoc device is an excellent thing, two or three members
well-informed and then report to the full committee for action.
So, as Senator Mansfield pointed out to all committee chairmen
including you, he believes this is a session where we ought to
exercise our oversight function, and a large part of this
committee is not legislative but oversight--Vietnam. NATO
hearings are an example.
The Chairman. That is an example.
Senator Clark. You cannot carry on more than one or two of
those things a year if you are going to have the full committee
do it, if you, Mr. Chairman, have to be the fellow out there in
the front all the time.
Now, it is true, the argument is made and to some extent it
is downgraded. But I call on my colleague from Oregon to point
out whenever they have a problem involving education they go to
the Senator from Oregon and not to the chairman of the
committee, Senator Hill, who is a wonderful magnificent
committee chairman I serve under. When they went to go to the
man on manpower problems, they come to me. But in the course of
a not too long period of time, you get the press oriented to
the fact the committee is organized so that most of the
committee work is done at a subcommittee level.
When you come to the full committee you have the most
gracious and able man in the Senate, of course present company
excepted, but we have to break down so the subcommittees can
have more status than they have now. It won't be done
overnight.
INACTIVE SUBCOMMITTEES
I have one more point. I serve on three subcommittees--
Disarmament, Economic Institutions and Tom Dodd's economic aid
problem. Those subcommittees have been pretty darned inactive
during the last two years I have been on the committees and why
have they been inactive--to some extent because the chairmen
have been too busy, but to a very large extent they have no
staff to organize witnesses, to handle it.
I think if you take those three subcommittees,
International Institutions, Disarmament, and Financial and
Economic Interests Overseas, one good staff man could start off
serving those three subcommittees as a start.
Now, Mr. William Bader has competence in that particular
area, and if we find that he can't do it by himself with those
three subcommittees maybe we ought to get more staff.
I don't have a shadow of a doubt that Wayne Morse has got
to have at least one man and maybe more to handle this Latin
American problem because Pat Holt can't do it.
GIVE FOREIGN AID BILL TO A SUBCOMMITTEE
The Chairman. Let me make one observation. You know the
Foreign Aid bill is long with this committee. What percentage
of those hearings were on foreign aid, you mentioned a great
number. About 30 or 40 percent. And it has disrupted this
committee for years. You know how much time it takes.
Senator Dodd. Couldn't you give that to a subcommittee?
The Chairman. Well, it has always been considered so
controversial and so difficult that the full committee handles
it. I would be perfectly willing to try a subcommittee.
Does everybody think that could be done with a
subcommittee?
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say,
first, my remark to Bourke was pretty fresh and I didn't mean
it that way and I regret saying it that way. I think he knows
how I feel.
I want to apologize for that crack. It really wasn't a
crack.
Senator Hickenlooper. Then there is no need to apologize
for it.
Senator Symington. Well, bless your heart.
The thing that worries me is, I am not a lawyer and nearly
everybody else here is, but I used to have a lot of experience
in management. For a good many years of my life, I went into
sick businesses and tried to work them out and they are still
going, if I may make that immodest remark.
ORGANIZATIONAL GROWTH
There comes a time when anything you do grows to a point
where you have to make major basic changes in organization, and
I say organizational structure along with it, functional
structure. You have to have an organization, reorganization of
your chart, and then you have to have a functional
reorganization. I know that they put a book out, the
Metropolitan Club had its 100th Anniversary and it said all the
members of the State Department were founders of it, and I
think 37 was the total members of the State Department in
Washington.
When my wife's grandfather was Secretary of State, John
Hay, at the turn of the century, there were just over a hundred
people in the State Department at that time.
The Chairman. The whole department?
Senator Symington. The whole department.
Senator Hickenlooper. They did pretty well.
Senator Aiken. That is good.
Senator Symington. We had the two greatest allies the world
has known, the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, too.
But to me it just seems as we watch the growth by hundreds
and hundreds of thousands, I think millions would be fair, of
the administrative branch and nobody has more respect for this
staff than I do and I always get a good rapid answer from Carl
Marcy or anybody else on the staff. It isn't that at all to me.
It is just a case of getting organized to handle the workload
which is infinitely more today, plus what Albert said about the
interests of the people.
THE COMMITTEE GOT PEOPLE INTERESTED IN FOREIGN POLICY
The one great thing that this committee did last year, it
got the people interested in the foreign policy of the United
States to an extent that they never even dreamed about, in my
opinion, that is when I get back to the hustings. It is going
to be much more, it is not going to be less, because now the
people are really interested in it and there is a lot of doubt
about this tremendous ground war in Asia, and a lot of
nervousness about this situation in the Middle East, and a lot
of work which has been done incidental to our occupation in
Europe and so on.
I know it is hard to get staff people, but I would say it
is a lot easier to get staff people into this problem today
than three or four years ago because there is a lot of interest
in it and good people follow where the interest goes. And I
hope this could be considered not as a criticism of the staff
and not as a criticism of the committee and, above all, not
criticism of you because you are the one more than anyone else
in the United States who has gotten the American people
interested in foreign policy.
A MANAGEMENT PROBLEM
I would hope it would be recognized on a management basis.
There is nobody I respect more than Bourke. He is your ranking
member, people like George Aiken next to him, nearly all over
there feel the way you do about most of these problems, the
senior members of the committee. We just have a management
problem on our hands and it was the kind of thing I was deep
in, it was my life's work 20 years ago, and I think we have got
to face up to the management problem.
The staff situation, a lot of things that could be done,
you could approve, have people, final approval, you could have
the top of your own staff consulted with your own final
decision on members of the subcommittee staff. Just thinking
off the top of my head it might be an excellent idea not to put
the subcommittees on television. God knows I wouldn't like to
try to get some real facts and dig in on the Arab-Israeli
problem on television and so forth and so on.
The Chairman. That would be explosive.
Senator Symington. There are a lot of ways that you could
bind this thing and the way the thing ran. This isn't the
committee with the least staff by any means, with all due
respect to my friend from Oregon.
The Agriculture Committee is a committee that has got for
my money much the least staff as against the money involved and
so forth and so on.
The Chairman. Finance has had no staff until this year.
Senator Symington. My experience on the Agriculture
Committee, I mean on the steering committee, and I know, Joe,
they spend their time up there, instead of fighting to get on
the committee, they spend their time fighting not to get on the
Agriculture Committee.
The Chairman. George wanted to say something. He has been
waiting here.
Senator Symington. I am all through now. But I think it is
a management problem here we are discussing today at least as
much as anything else.
The Chairman. George?
AD HOC VERSUS AD INFINITUM
Senator Aiken. I have been listening very attentively to
the discussion relative to ad hoc committees and the staffing
of ad hoc committees, and I am sure if they were well staffed
they would have some very interesting staff meetings.
But I also have a great regard for the intelligence and
education of my chairman and I wanted to ask him what is the
distance between ad hoc and ad infinitum.
Senator Gore. Mr. Chairman, getting back to the overall
thing----
The Chairman. I don't know.
Senator Gore. I guess you assigned me more ad hoc duties
last year than anyone.
The Chairman. I think more individual bills you handled
than any of them.
Senator Gore. Well, some of them we reported and the
committee acted upon in the Senate and some of them we reported
on unfavorably, and I think events have sustained us. I am
willing to do whatever you want me to do in that regard.
PROVOKING PUBLIC DISCUSSION
But, again, I repeat, the overall function of this
committee, as Stu Symington said, touched the American people.
It stimulated an awareness and a study. It provoked study and
discussion groups all over the United States.
I would like to see us conduct another hearing of a level
that would challenge the intelligent and public spirited people
of the country.
For instance, what are the valid indices of the great
decisions today of a preeminent world power. Are we stuck with
shibboleths, are there abstractions that have emotional and
political appeal on which we should not base decisions? Where
are we? What is our position in the world, and why?
It seems to me if you could get some of the eminent
scholars of the country once again, not to examine whether we
should or should not be in Vietnam, that is past, but to
examine the position of this country in the world of today's
technology, that we could once again play an important role in
public education and once again assert the constitutional
importance of the Senate.
STATE DEPARTMENT OPPOSITION TO AN EFFECTIVE COMMITTEE
Senator Morse. I want to say the Senator from Oregon is not
going to take the rap that he gets from certain quarters
because the subcommittee on Latin America is not conducting the
hearings it ought to be conducting. They should be conducted
and conducted under your jurisdiction. I am not asking the
subcommittee appoint staff but asking that you and the full
committee appoint them. I am pointing out that nothing I have
heard this morning justifies keeping the staff at its small
number. We can get people. Sure it is hard to get them. Sure we
can enlarge the staff by getting qualified people and we should
do it.
I want to say no member of this staff in my judgment can
serve as a substitute for the responsibilities of the
committee. Pat Holt makes very fine reports, but those reports
ought to be conducted under the direction of the subcommittee
and they ought to be subject to review by the subcommittee, and
we ought to be able to call people in and determine whether or
not they stand up.
I think they will stand up. But the State Department would
love to have some of these subcommittees continue to be
ineffective.
The last thing Rusk and Rostow and Gordon want is a vital
working effective subcommittee on Latin America, but you had
better keep your eyes on Latin America, may I say to this
committee, because you have got great problems and trouble
stirring themselves up in Latin America, and the subcommittee
should do the job on the subject and not Pat Holt, in effect
operating somewhat independent of the subcommittee. All I am
asking for is that you enlarge your staff, that you can take
complete jurisdiction over the subjects that will be taken up
by your subcommittee and that we get on with the job of doing
what--let's face it, this full committee is never going to do
in regard to the Latin American problem because you haven't got
time to do it, but the subcommittee can.
You would know when we would have our meeting, we wouldn't
be interfering with your jurisdiction. I would have them at
night, if necessary, but we would do the work.
But I only want to say as chairman of this subcommittee
that the full committee is letting down the subcommittee, in my
judgment, speaking as its chairman. I don't care how many
members on the subcommittee want to let the present
arrangements continue. It is not a good arrangement, and you
are not going to do the job on Latin America and you either get
a new subcommittee, if you want to get a new chairman, go ahead
and get him, but I want to say I am going to continue to
express why this subcommittee is not doing its job. It is not
doing the job because it isn't properly staffed.
AMERICAN RESPONSIBILITIES AS A GREAT POWER
The Chairman. Well, I certainly am glad to have this
discussion, and I will talk with the staff and see if we can
come up with some concrete suggestion and maybe look into the
matter of getting some more.
I don't want to go too far, but I certainly think we ought
to move in this direction and we will do it better.
I want to make a comment here, Senator Gore brought up a
question which was the last item on my agenda and the time is
almost running out.
The staff and I have been discussing this during this
interim and I think you are quite right. We had a general
subject that we are talking about called American
responsibilities as a great power, a general subject to survey
in some open hearings--of course we expect to start out in the
usual way with whatever the administration wishes to say on
this with Secretary Rusk and McNamara and others, that is the
foreign policy prospects for '67. In that anything may be
discussed, and this subject, general subject would be involved.
I wanted to raise this question with you, a subject, for
example, of this which we kicked around here at some length,
the nature of our commitments, this nature of our being
committed all the time.
A number of these treaties, the President last night
referred to them, and he is going to live up to all of them. We
made a great many treaties during the 50's, a review of this as
a part of this overall review of our relations as the greatest
power in the world today and what that means.
Another one was this man Edwin Reischauer is back. I have
been thinking about, I would certainly personally like very
much to have him. He ought to be as well qualified as anybody,
for example, to discuss our relations with the whole Pacific
area, not just Vietnam but he is especially qualified, it seems
to me, to testify about our relations with Japan, China, the
whole area of which Vietnam is simply one part.
Senator Symington. I couldn't agree with you more.
AN EXAMINATION FOR OUR OWN EDUCATION
The Chairman. This is the way we have been thinking about
it and it is what I wanted to bring up.
What does the committee think about it?
I think it is on all fours with what the Senator from
Tennessee stated. I completely agree with that. This is an area
in which the full committee----
Senator Gore. But an examination----
The Chairman. That is correct. My own view is not at all we
are attacking anybody. This is an examination for our own
education, our own benefit as well as the public as to what
kind of a role should the United States play under these
present circumstances, and this is a complicated matter. It
sounds vague but it is very real.
Senator Clark. Mr. Chairman, could I make one brief
comment?
The Chairman. Does this appeal to you?
Senator Symington. Yes.
Senator Clark. It appeals to me very much.
I would like to make one brief comment to my very good
friend Carl Marcy for whom I have the most profound admiration
as a magnificent chief of this committee, but I hope when he
starts to look around for a new staff man, Carl, we won't have
as one of the criteria a timid little Ph.D. who is prepared to
wipe the dandruff off the shoulders of members of this
committee. I think that is what you mean.
The Chairman. I don't know what you mean. Maybe Mr. Marcy
does.
[Discussion off the record.]
A COMBINATION OF ACTUAL EXPERIENCES
Senator Symington. I think it would be a wonderful thing to
get Reischauer. I stayed twice with him in Tokyo.
The Chairman. He is an example. I hope we can get other
people.
You necessarily, when you get outside of the government,
are going to be confronted with the difficulty of getting
people who have a combination of actual experiences, as he has,
plus a sufficient historical, political, social background and
so on, and that he can relate it to us. This is difficult to
get those people.
Senator Clark. We have no finer fellow on the staff than
Jim Lowenstein, with whom I spent a month with in Europe who is
absolutely terrific. He came to this committee from a good spot
in the State Department because he thought he could be more
useful here.
The Chairman. We have a new one we haven't used much who
will turn out the same way, and he is Bader. He was in the
State Department and it was partly because of Jim Lowenstein
and everyone seemed to agree.
Senator Pell. I came in and became a Senator. [Laughter.]
TESTIMONY FROM LOWER LEVEL OFFICIALS
Senator Morse. Bill, I don't know whether you can get--
whether protocol stops you or other restrictions do, but I wish
we could get in Edward E. Rice, who is our consul general in
Hong Kong, if our State Department will come and let him
testify in executive session.
The Chairman. It is a great problem.
I would like to have some of these lower level people. The
State Department seems to take the view the Secretary ought to
talk for them. They don't want their underlings to testify. I
hate to embarrass the underlings because they might fire them.
I would like to do it, personally. I agree with you.
Senator Morse. Carl Marcy can tell you if you get a
briefing that we got in Hong Kong from Rice, it is far
different from what the Secretary tells you when he comes in
here.
The Chairman. Well, I have the same feeling.
What can we do about it, as a practical matter?
Senator Symington. I can tell you what we can do about it.
We ran into exactly the same thing in the Armed Services
Committee, and I think I was the one who suggested first that
we put the witnesses under oath. Then we had the Preparedness
Subcommittee, under John Stennis, an able, fair, efficient
fellow, and these fellows come in and we tell him who we want
as witnesses. We don't let them tell us who we want as
witnesses, and we pull in two or three fliers in Vietnam and
they are under oath so they can go right back and say, ``You
don't want me to perjure myself, do you?'' And they come up
there and they give us more information in less time as against
all this stuff that we get from the Joint Chiefs, you see.
We really begin to cut the mustard as to what the facts
are.
DOVES AND HAWKS
One thing I don't know and that worries me a very great
deal, based on my relationship with this government, is whether
there is any accuracy in the fact that essentially McNamara is
a dove and essentially Rusk is a hawk and the degree of it. I
do know that when I talk to Walt Rostow who is now in a
protective position as part of the Executive Branch that he was
pretty darned hawkish, you see.
Well, I think it might be, I certainly would subscribe to
what Neil Sheehan wrote in the New York Times the other day
after this last trip of mine, not a dove but no longer a hawk.
When these fellows come down like the JCS they can't cross
a ``t'' or dot an ``i'' that isn't approved by higher
authority.
So it seems to me if we had a subcommittee operating on the
theory of getting the facts from less important people, and you
come in and run the committee any time you want to handle it
and call the people in here, I think to call in some of these
ambassadors from outside this country and if necessary put them
under oath.
TESTIMONY FROM JOURNALISTS
The Chairman. Let me ask you--I am glad to have this angle.
The other angle that bothers me--I would like to have
newspapermen. We went over this in the Dominican thing.
Does the committee feel that this is unfeasible?
Some of these people have more experience.
Senator Symington. I don't know, but I know one thing. You
have the right as chairman of this committee to ask anybody in
this government because we put the money up.
Senator Pell. I think you have the right to ask foreigners,
too.
The Chairman. We have never done it. These are the
precedents which this committee has had long before I came
here. It seems to me that we ought to have a little greater
freedom to ask anybody who appeals to us.
Senator Symington. I couldn't agree with you more.
The Chairman. These have been traditions, and I thought it
ought to be the decision of the committee.
Do you think we ought to contemplate, I will certainly
submit any of these changes to the committee, but shall we
investigate it, for purposes of discussion?
Senator Morse. I think so because we are entitled to give
the American people the facts they are entitled to receive from
any source.
JEOPARDIZING SUBORDINATE OFFICIALS
Senator Hickenlooper. This is the old story with this
committee and other committees to try to get in subordinate
officials to try to get them to testify when their own necks
are out eight feet. If they offend their superiors, they will
get their heads chopped off and you just put them there and put
them under the guillotine.
Look at [Otto] Otepka, sitting there in the State
Department being there for two years because he told the truth
to the [Thomas] Dodd committee and they just, they have got him
sitting over there, nothing to do and they are trying to get
rid of him, but they don't have a case against him.
You have got----
Senator Symington. In 1948, I bucked the Secretary of
Defense as Secretary of the Air Force. In 1949, Mr. Truman had
a meeting in the cabinet room and he said, ``I want everybody
here to support this budget whether they like it or not and if
they don't want to support it I want them to say so now.''
A lot of people in the room, but he looked at me the whole
time he was saying it, and I said, ``I just want to ask you one
question and then I will make up my mind. Are you asking me to
go up on the Hill and perjure myself?''
And he looked at me for about 15 seconds and he said,
``Will you give me your word of honor you didn't instigate the
question?''
And I said, ``I will,'' and he said, ``Go up there and tell
them what you believe.''
If you get these fellows and put them under oath and put
them--it is pretty tough if anybody above them, and we will
know about it soon enough if they are castigated for perjuring
themselves before this committee in order to follow a party
line.
Senator Hickenlooper. Stu, nobody knows better than you do
it doesn't happen the next week after they do it. It happens
two years later when they find themselves going down the hall
and pretty soon the door opens and they fall off and you can't
go back and prove it.
[Discussion off the record.]
Senator Gore. That has been a helpful session.
[Discussion off the record.]
PROSPECTIVE WITNESSES
The Chairman. I am going to ask Mr. Marcy to try to contact
these people along these lines, if you have any suggestion
about it. Some of them I mentioned, if this meets with your
approval, the Communist world in '67, some hearing on this
subject. I would like to have men like George Kennan and
Schulman who are the recognized authorities on that subject.
Does that suit you?
Senator Gore. Yes.
The Chairman. And Asia, the Pacific.
Senator Gore. We not only need to examine ourselves in this
world, but we need to examine our adversaries in this world.
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Gore. In order to determine our place.
The Chairman. And our relations to them, what they are like
and our relations.
Senator Gore. What are our dangers, prospects and
limitations.
The Chairman. For example, this subject has been suggested,
Asia, the Pacific, and the United States, that type of thing
may have a man like Reischauer, he is the best type of man I
can think of to best describe what is presently the situation
in Japan, the Far East. He is a long time scholar of China. If
anybody could interpret that situation, it seems to me he would
be as good as anybody.
But that is the type of hearing.
This is strictly educational, not intended to attack
anybody at all, simply the information of what it is like out
there, what these people think and what our relations to them
ought to be.
Does that make sense to you?
Senator Gore. Yes.
CHANGING AMERICAN ATTITUDES TOWARD FOREIGN POLICY
The Chairman. And on down, the changing American attitudes
towards foreign policy. I mean what is going to here, our
attitude, what we are afflicted with, what limitations and so
on, and the nature of U.S. commitments.
We talked about this last year. It seems to me we ought to
clarify this matter.
I get so fed up with being told we are committed to
something all the time, which I don't think is so. What makes
the commitment is having the President say we are committed,
and I don't think that is what I mean by commitment. I think
the commitment is something that is taken by the Congress and
the Executive, not just a unilateral action.
Senator Gore. SEATO committed us to confer.
The Chairman. I think they absolutely misrepresent what
SEATO is. He repeated it again. Of course that is what Rusk has
been saying over the past couple of years. He didn't say it in
the beginning, but he is saying it now.
When you read what Dulles said SEATO meant it isn't what
they now say it means.
Senator Gore. It isn't what Rusk said at the beginning.
The Chairman. Well, if I understand it, that is the way we
will proceed. Who can we get on some of these? I would like to
have James Gavin again on that----
Senator Pell. Matthew Ridgway maybe.
The Chairman. And Ridgway. Who we can get.
Senator Pell. I think Ridgway is more coherent in his
arguments.
SCHOLARS AND GENERALS
The Chairman. Gavin we had, and I thought he did a very
good job. It is perfectly all right to have them both. The
reason I do is we naturally have to have so many scholars
because they are available and I would like to use whatever
generals we can to offset the attitude we are stacking these
hearings and not having generals.
Whatever generals that are called at all reasonably I would
like to have them not because I have such respect personally,
they are wiser than others, but to offset the emotional
prejudice in some quarters against the scholars.
Does that make sense to you?
Senator Pell. Perfectly.
The Chairman. The same with this fellow Griffith. He is a
scholar. He was as good as you can find among the generals, and
lived in China and he has a reasonable attitude. It offsets the
criticism they offered toward people like Fairbank and Bartlett
and others.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ John K. Fairbank, Professor of Asian History at Harvard, and
Ruhl J. Bartlett, Professor of Diplomatic History at The Fletcher
School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Marcy. Do you want to mention----
The Chairman. Did either one of you see Alf Landon's speech
that he made in Kansas three months ago?
Well, it is a remarkable speech. I couldn't believe it, and
I am all for having him. I never dreamed of having a fellow
like that but he made a speech I think you would thoroughly
approve of, and I think it would be very good politically to
have him sandwiched in among these scholars. The speech is
available if either one of you have time to read it. I am sure
you would approve it, and coming from that quarter it
absolutely knocked me out of my chair.
It is amazing, he is quite a fellow, at least from this
speech.
INVITE SUGGESTIONS FOR WITNESSES
Senator Gore. Why don't you invite all members of the
committee to suggest possible witnesses. We would not be
obligated to invite all, but out of the suggestions might come
a very helpful suggestion?
The Chairman. I have no objection other than the personal
relations. They have a feeling if they submit some, we have 19
members and if you don't take them they will be offended.
Senator Pell. I think you are right.
The Chairman. If they put in a friend or a fellow----
Senator Gore. I withdraw it.
In other words, I am asked to submit a man and then you
didn't invite him. I withdraw the suggestion.
The Chairman. You can get into awful serious trouble.
Last year the way we did it was this way, Albert, after
thinking about it. The way that was done--I didn't know a lot
of the people--I asked Carl and the fellow Robertson who is the
China expert in the Library, Far East, and Barnett of Columbia
who is a recognized authority. I didn't have anything really to
do with it. I didn't know most of those people. They got
together, surveyed the situation and tried to fit the man to
the subject and that is the way they were selected until the
very end when Bourke said to me, ``I think we ought to have
somebody on our side,'' and I said, ``These aren't on my side,
they are supposed to be the best there are.''
Well, anyway, that is the way we got the other three. It
didn't work too bad in this sense, Albert, because after we got
through these, then Bourke, we satisfied--he submitted those
three names and he was satisfied.
If we started out, I imagine we would have had 15 names,
Mundt's and various ones, all of them had submitted them and we
hadn't got them, I am afraid they would be mad.
But those three satisfied him.
What we want is not quantity but quality if we can get it,
the very best that we can get. I don't want to get just one
point of view. I would like to get people who have had
experiences who can give both points of view or whatever points
of view there are.
A NEW POLITICAL ATMOSPHERE
Senator Gore. Well, just as last year, as more or less of a
tangential effect of our Vietnam hearing, the hearing created a
new political atmosphere in which the administration had some
maneuverability with respect to China, it seems to me if we
could get the proper erudition on the subject many of the World
War II dogmas could be examined and I have an idea many of them
are not very valid any more.
The Chairman. I agree with you, I am sure.
Senator Gore. And yet we need the study ourselves, but
perhaps even more importantly for the American people.
The Chairman. That is right. That is what I meant. We ought
to be the forum for, the sounding board for these scholars and
thoughtful people who have no other way of reaching the
American people. I mean these people we had, Fairbank, nobody
ever heard of him. He could write a book or article or write a
speech and he wouldn't get beyond the 200 people who read him
but with this forum, in a way he reached millions of people,
and that is what I think we can do. It is a question of getting
people who really know this subject. I thought we did pretty
well: we had darned good people.
BUSINESSMEN AS WITNESSES
Senator Pell. In this connection, most of the witnesses we
had were scholars. I was able to get a passport validated for
an American businessman from Textron, a friend of mine, a
businessman. If he succeeds in getting in, somebody who can
speak firsthand as a man with considerable intellectual
curiosity, a lawyer, and he believes in opening up contacts
there, that would have even more of an impact.
The Chairman. You remember this man Blackie who was head of
Caterpillar? We had him on East-West Trade. He was smart and he
made a good witness. That is a top businessman in this country.
Senator Pell. Even better than a general.
The Chairman. He is one of the most successful businessmen
in the country with worldwide business and he made a good
witness on East-West trade. That is a thing which I think could
well be involved.
EDUCATING THE ADMINISTRATION
Senator Gore. Not only do we educate the American people
and ourselves but again referring, adverting to the China
hearings, I think the Administration got a little light on it
as much as we did.
The Chairman. The Administration needs it as much as we do.
Senator Gore. I believe they welcomed the effect and
reacted to it.
The Chairman. They do on China. They got miffed on Vietnam
because they thought it challenged their policy.
Senator Gore. I mean China.
The Chairman. I think that is correct.
TRIP TO CAMBODIA
Senator Pell. Speaking on firsthand knowledge, too, is
there any more on the trip to Cambodia? I talked to Carl about
it. I don't think there was. As I understand it, we are waiting
now a little bit on our dignity. Shouldn't we reactivate it?
Mr. Marcy. The latest on that was that the Cambodians
advised that we not press it, not respond affirmatively to
their invitation to come until Prince Sihanouk was back from
some medical treatment in Paris.
The Chairman. That is right.
He went to France.
Mr. Marcy. He is still in Paris. They expect him back some
time in February.
Senator Pell. Late January.
Mr. Marcy. I am sure we really can't get a reply from them
until he really does get back, but in late January or early
February it would be appropriate either for us or for them, I
think, to open the question again. We can do it simply by
telephoning New York.
Senator Pell. The reason I wanted to raise it is just
simply to get three senators to make plans to go two or three
weeks. The best time would be in January during a slack p
