News


<b>XII LOK SABHA DEBATES, <i> Session II, (Budget) </i> </b>
XII LOK SABHA DEBATES, Session II, (Budget) Friday, May 29, 1998 / Jyaistha 8, 1920 (Saka)


Type of Debate: SHORT DURATION DISCUSSIONS (RULE-193)
Title: Further discussion on the statement made by the Prime Minister in the House on 27th May,1998 on the recent nuclear tests in Pokhran raised by Shri Indrajit Gupta on the 27th May,98. The motion was adopted. TEXT : 1432 hours

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Vaiko

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): Mr. Chairman, Sir, are you permitting me or not?

ɦ{i ɽn ( x |ɺn ɨ): xɪɨ 193 bEx Sɱ * ... (ɴvx)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): Sir, I am on point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Under what rule are you raising your point of order?

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): Sir, the rule is 376. The point is very simple. Today's papers say that Trinamool Congress has suspended its support to the Government. Now I hear that the Biju Janata Dal has withdrawn support. Does this Government enjoy majority or not? They should clarify at least that. Such reports of withdrawal of support have come. We would like to know from the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs does the Government have majority support or not?

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. Shri Vaiko to speak.

iұɱ (VxnMƴ): {ʱǪɨ] +ɺ ʨxɺ] Vn + j Vn *

... (ɴvx)

DR. SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY (MADURAI): Maybe, they are having a Cabinet meeting for that.

ɦ{i ɽn : {ʱǪɨ] +ɺ ʨxɺ] Vn + BE j Vn *

... (ɴvx)

b. ɡE֮ǽx E (֮nɤn) : +{ j V Vɴɤ nɴ nVB* ... (ɴvx)

ƺnҪ Eɪ j il {ɪ]x j ( nx ɱ J֮x): E< ɴɱ xɽ , ɨ V +{E <SU {ڮ x ɱ xɽ

... (ɴvx)

+{ <xƺ ʨxɺ] xx ɱ xɽ *

... (ɴvx)

< n E +n BE ɽ ɨ + BE ɽ ɨ *

... (ɴvx)

b. ֥ɽhɨ ɨ (n֮): +{ nx E xɨɺEɮ Ei ʽ, xɽ i +{E ɱi Jɮɤ VɪM*

... (ɴvx)

SHRI R.S. GAVAI (AMRAVATI): Sir, I want to raise a point of order under Rule 376 (2), which says that :

"A point of order may be raised in relation to the business before the House at the moment:"

Yesterday, at the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition, it was decided that both the Motions should be taken up together.

SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): How can you speak when I have been asked to speak? Mr. Chairman asked me to speak.

SHRI R.S. GAVAI (AMRAVATI): I am not speaking. I am only seeking a ruling over my point of order.

ɦ{i ɽn ( x |ɺn ɨ) : + bEx ְ Mɪ + bEx E S {<] + +bǮ xɽ i*

... (ɴvx)

ɦ{i ɽn : Vɤ bEx n Vɪ <DZb E iɤ +{ Ei * ... + bEx ְ Mɪ *

... (ɴvx)

SHRI R.S. GAVAI (AMRAVATI): Sir, he is on his legs and he is yet to start his speech.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Under what rule are you raising this point of order?

SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Mr. Chairman, Sir .... (Interruptions)

SHRI R.S. GAVAI (AMRAVATI): Sir, if he is making his speech, then what about my point of order?

MR. CHAIRMAN: What is your point of order?

SHRI R.S. GAVAI (AMRAVATI): Please bear with me and you may give your ruling either in favour of it or against it. According to Rule 376 (2) :

"A point of order may be raised in relation to the business before the House at the moment:"

Item No. 23 says :

"Further discussion on the statement made by the Prime Minister in the House on the 27th May, 1998 regarding recent nuclear tests in Pokhran raised by Shri Indrajit Gupta on the 27th May, 1998."

Yesterday, the hon. Leader of the Opposition has raised the issue of tests conducted by Pakistan. Now, the discussion on both these things should be tagged together, that is, the tests conducted by India and Pakistan. The Motion should be on these lines, otherwise it will be an unilateral Motion. As per the conscious decision taken by the House yesterday, at the end of this Motion, we can add the words "and the nuclear tests conducted by Pakistan". It was decided in the House that these two Motions will be taken up together, but as it is, it is an isolated Motion.

SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Sir, there is no point of order because there is no other Motion before the House.

ƺnҪ Eɪ j il {ɪ]x j ( nx ɱ J֮x): nx E ɨx E< x xɽ *

... (ɴvx)

Eɱ |< ʨxɺ] E ]]] E >{ɮ ɽ SS *

... (ɴvx)

ɦ{i ɽn : xɪɨ 193 {ɮ E SS Sɱ l E iɦ Sx +< E {Eix x {ɮIh E * ɽ ɽ E ɨ{i x l Ex + BE nx + g n Mɪ * + V Ei Mɪ , <x x< {ʮʺliɪ +{x ʴSɮ JM*

SHRI R.S. GAVAI (AMRAVATI): Sir, the subject matter of this Motion is about the recent nuclear tests in Pokhran. What about the discussion on the after-effects of the tests conducted by Pakistan? It is very relevant here.

ƺnҪ Eɪ j il {ɪ]x j ( nx ɱ J֮x): = n ɽ ɽ Sɱ *

... (ɴvx)

ɦ{i ɽn : Vɤ +{ i = Ei +{ +{x {S < ƶx E Ei * ɽ x< {ʮliɪ + =x E ʱB BE nx + gɪ Mɪ *

SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Your have made your point.

SHRI R.S. GAVAI (AMRAVATI): You start your speech and I will make my speech after that.

1439 hours

SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): Mr. Chairman, Sir, thank you very much for the opportunity given to me. The nuclear tests conducted by Pakistan at Chagai region in the province of Baluchistan at 1546 hours yesterday and the subsequent action and attitude of the Pakistani Government, particularly the aggressive speech or the statement of the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Shri Nawaz Sharif, vindicated and justified the nuclear tests that India conducted at Pokhran on 11th and 13th May.

Yesterday at odd hours at 2.10 a.m. our High Commissioner in Islamabad, Shri Satish Chandra was woken up and called to Foreign Office and he was told that India had a plan to attack the nuclear installations. Our High Commissioner correctly dismissed it as absurd and malicious.

Our hon. President of India also expressed the same opinion calling it absurd and malicious.

The tests were conducted and the President of Pakistan, Shri Rafiq Tarar declared a state of emergency under the pretext of a threat of external aggression to the security of Pakistan.

Things take very fast turn and the Pakistan officials, Army officials and Foreign Ministry spokesmen informed that the long range Ghauri missile is already being capped with nuclear warheads to give a befitting reply to the adventures by the enemy. So, the Ghauri missile is being capped with nuclear warheads.

When you take into account all these things together, one thing is very clear that they could not have manufactured a bomb overnight. They have been at it for years. Shri Nawaz Sharif himself has stated that from the year, 1974 they are at it.

I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Members of this House to the statement of Dr. Abdul Qadir Khan, who is called the father of Islamic bomb. He gave an interview on 1st March, 1987 to foreign journalists who happened to be India. In that interview which was published in The Indian Express at that time, I do remember a debate took place in both the Houses of Parliament over that. In that statement, he said " America knows it and that what the CIA is saying about our possession of bomb is correct." So, for years they have been manufacturing and they have been at it. They were planning to have nuclear bombs. They were making all the preparations and yesterday after the tests were conducted, the Prime Minister of Pakistan had all praise for China. He has said that China is the time-tested friend of Pakistan and has also stated that they are proud of China. It seems they have communicated to China prior to the conducting of the test.

Sir, even after all these things, all these inflammatory and aggressive speeches of the Prime Minister rousing passions, he offers for talk. India has all along been trying to negotiate with them, to prepare for talks. But we should not forget one thing that the Pakistan Government is prepared for talks on one condition that the Kashmir question should be settled first and then only other things should be discussed. They are not prepared for talks even about the sponsored terrorism through the ISI in our country; their diabolical attempts to destabilise our country. Are we prepared to hand over Kashmir on a platter?

Yesterday, our hon. Home Minister was referring to the report of the Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare of the U.S. Congress, the report prepared by Mr. Youssef Bodansky, who is the Editor of the Jane's Defence Weekly. He has produced many books also. I do not want to repeat what Shri Advani stated. But I would like to quote from this document which is very relevant at this point of time. I quote:

"This clearly indicates that the Pakistani Government has bravely displayed its nuclear capability... Pakistan is really in a position to strike a heavy blow against India through its nuclear capability... The strategic logic of using the nuclear factor to offset any deficiencies in conventional military power has been the corner-stone of Pakistan's nuclear strategy."

Again, the question of Kashmir comes here. Qazi Hussain Ahmad, the Chief Senator, urged the Pakistan Government to declare a Jehad on India to get back Kashmir. He said:

"Let us wage Jehad for Kashmir. A nuclear-armed Pakistan would deter India from a wider conflict."

Now, we know what Pakistan's Agenda is. When they declared that they should wage a Jehad, that was supported by all sections in the Parliament in the debate in Pakistan. Today, all the political parties in Pakistan are supporting the line taken by the Nawaz Sharif Government on this. They are united in that in their Parliament. But we are not united. I do not want to find fault with our hon. Members. Even Shri Chidambaram pointed this out that we are divided. Of course, Parliament may be divided. Political parties may be divided. But here in India the people are not divided over the issue. They are with the Government. That is the fact. We cannot burry the fact. The people of this country throughout the length and breadth of this great country are overwhelmed with a sense of pride. They are overwhelmed with a sense of joy, with a sense of confidence, and with a sense of pride. That is the fact. But that has not been reflected in this Parliament. At this hour, we have to stand as one. We have to express our view.

Sir, I will be failing in my duty if I do not pay tributes and express my vast congratulations from the core of my heart, convey my greetings and applause to our scientists and engineers.

MR. CHAIRMAN (SHRI BENI PRASAD VERMA): Please conclude.

SHRI VAIKO:I have started just now and you are ringing the bell.

ɦ{i ɽn ( x |ɺn ɨ): 20 ʨx] MB *

SHRI VAIKO: Our scientists deserve all honour for their spectacular achievement. This is the finest hour in this country, this is not an hour of concern because history is going to pay the glowing tribute to Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee for his correct, courageous, foresighted and commendable decision to give the green signal to our scientists. Our scientists have used our own indigenous technology for this nuclear test.

I will quote Dr. Chidambaram from his interview to the Frontline dated 5th June where he said, "What we have done now is a test, a whole series of explosive devices. One can say, almost of all possible types which includes a fission device of advance design, a thermo-nuclear device..." I do not think, Pakistan has used this device.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.

SHRI VAIKO: I have to speak from the Government side. I have to hit many of the questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Many Members have to participate in this discussion.

ƺnҪ Eɪ j il {ɪ]x j ( nx ɱ J֮x): Vix n + iE , +{x =xE +v P] E {Sɺ ʨx] iE nB *

ɦ{i ɽn: < +V ɨ{i Ex *

nx ɱ J֮x: `E +V ɨ{i Ex , <x lc ɨɪ + n n*

SHRI VAIKO: Our technology is an indigenous technology. The political analyst and the former Director of the CIA stated yesterday that Pakistan's devices are of Chinese technology. Hon. Members from the other side mentioned in their speeches that there was no threat to India from China. Particularly, hon. Shri Chidambaram said, "there is no threat from China and the Government has made Shri George Fernandes, the Defence Minister, a pawn to invent a threat." He referred to the Fifth, the Seventh and the Eighth Reports of the Standing Committee on Defence for the year 1995-96. I want to quote from the Fifth Report. It says:

"China is likely to remain a primary security challenge to India in the medium and long term. The enhancement of missile capabilities are an immense help to Pakistan's missile programmes and are serious security concerns to India."

Hon. Shri Indrajit Gupta was the Chairman of the Committee which presented the Fifth Report. All these reports indicate that there is a threat, a primary security challenge from China.

Hon. Shri Natwar Singh referred to 1962 conflict. He said: "All these 2000 years, there was only one conflict and no indepth study has been done as to why it happened." Hon. Shri Chidambaram also stated about the circumstances under which the war broke out and the circumstances are still surrounded in controversy. We should not forget the fact that Pandit Nehru, the apostle of peace, was for peace with China.

He advocated the slogan of Panchsheel at Bandung. We were not for militarisation. We were not for weaponisation. All our resources were meant for developing industry, agriculture and to bring prosperity in India.' But what happened? In 1962, when they crossed our border in Cannon Road, Nehru's words crumbled. He was the most disappointed man. All his dreams shattered. On the floor of this very House, on the 8th of November, 1962 in his speech, he said: "China had betrayed us and we were not at all prepared for that". Sir, had we prepared ourselves at that time, they would not have crossed our border.

Sir, likewise, manufacturing a bomb or possession of nuclear weapons is not meant for any aggression, is not meant for any striking. But it will be used as a deterrent. Take for example, wars. All the wars were fought in the world after the dropping of bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. No two nuclear powers fought with each other. Nuclear powers are only against the non-nuclear powers. So, it will be a deterrent.

We have got a bitter experience in 1962 with one of our neighbouring countries. We are for better relationship with China even today. But at the same time, you should not forget that unless we prove our might, unless we prove our strength, peace is not possible.

Sir, you take the case of Ashoka. He was the Apostle of peace only after the Kalinga War. After the Kalinga War, there was no rebel in the country. Nobody dared to touch the country. He proved the might in the Kalinga War. Likewise, we have to prepare ourselves. That will be a deterrent. One country is an overt Nuclear Power State and the other country is a covert Nuclear Power State. That was the communication given to Mr. Bill Clinton by the Government of India. There is nothing wrong in it. That is the fact. We have to accept the fact. We cannot follow an astrict policy. So, when they are very strong and when their intentions are malicious, we have to be strong and we have to prove our might.

We are for global peace. It is we, who took the initiative in 1954 for total disarmament; again in 1965 and in 1988 to ban the nuclear weapons. It is we who had taken the steps in this direction and not Pakistan. We have taken the steps for total disarmament. So, let us take the initiative here. We had already ratified the Biological Weapons Convention and Chemical Weapons Convention. We are for that. At the same time, we have to keep our Army powerful. Sir, I would quote a kural of Tiruvalluvar about the kingdom of the country. It says:

"Padai Kudi Koozh Amaitohu Natpu

Arana Aarum Udayam Arasaroul Er"

He describes about the kingdom of the country, the Army, wealth, people, Council of Ministers, friends and foes. If a king possesses all these things, he is the lion amongst the kings. So, the first requirement is the `Army'. So, you have to prove your strength. Unless you are strong, you cannot bring peace.

Sir, people are talking about Vietnam. Yes, of course, for twelve years, Vietnam fought. But they had got the umbrella of China and USSR. Had they got a bomb, even the United States would not have fought with them even for 20 seconds.

Therefore, we have also to equip ourselves with this potential weapon. This is not meant for any aggression. The fact is that the nuclear threat is there. Our neighbour is already equipped with nuclear weapons. Have you forgotten that they have supplied all the technologies to Pakistan? Their `Ghauri' missile was launched on April 6. That was the warning signal. And again, they are going in for `Ghaznavi' missile. You see, they have named these missiles as `Ghauri' and `Ghaznavi'. They already had the bomb. They were in possession of bombs. Just now they have tested them.

Now, we have proved to the world that we are also a Nuclear Power, Nuclear Weapon State. But that does not mean that we are going in for arms race and people are tempted to say that we have started arms race.


[NEXT PAGE]