News

Interview of Defector (Abbas al Janabi) with Al Hayat

Iraq News, THURSDAY, OCTOBER 29, 1998

By Laurie Mylroie

The central focus of Iraq News is the tension between the considerable, proscribed WMD capabilities that Iraq is holding on to and its increasing stridency that it has complied with UNSCR 687 and it is time to lift sanctions. If you wish to receive Iraq News by email, a service which includes full-text of news reports not archived here, send your request to Laurie Mylroie .




I.   PART 1, EXCERPT OF INTERVIEW WITH AL JANABI, AL HAYAT, OCT 18
II.  PART 2, EXCERPT OF INTERVIEW WITH AL JANABI, AL HAYAT, OCT 20
III. PART 3, EXCERPT OF INTERVIEW WITH AL JANABI, AL HAYAT, OCT 22

  Today is the 85th day without weapons inspections in Iraq.
  
  An Iraqi reader, in London, was kind enough to translate excerpts from 
a lengthy interview al Hayat conducted with Abbas al-Janabi, a close 
aide of Uday, who defected earlier this year.  
  Among other things, Janabi explained that Uday believed Saddam made 
three mistakes during the Gulf war: 1) releasing the Western hostages; 
2) allowing allied troops to mass in Saudi Arabia, rather than attacking 
them; 3) not capturing the Saudi oil fields, including oil 
installations, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, so it could hold them hostage 
by threatening to blow them up, if the US attacked.  Probably, not only 
Uday thinks like that, in the view of "Iraq News."
   Janabi also described how, as head of Youth Radio and Television, he 
was brutally tortured, on Uday's orders, for no particular reason, and 
that he personally witnessed Uday torture and kill people.  
  He also explained, "To Uday, Iraq is a milking cow.  He lives in it in 
a very privileged way and takes anything he wants from it at any time.  
Like his father, he thinks Iraqis are not more than slaves. . . I see 
pictures of the starving children and how they are dying. . . Iraqis are 
now living under bridges, the educated ones selling their books to buy 
food.  Every single Iraqi wants to leave in order to be able to secure 
food.  However, Uday constantly says: The Iraqis were hungry people and 
it was we who fed them."
   In late 1990, an Egyptian academic met with Sadun Hammadi, then head 
of Iraq's Nat'l Assembly and a friend he had known since college.  The 
Egyptian warned about the coming war, if Iraq did not withdraw from 
Kuwait.  Hammadi responded by asserting that when the Ba'th took power 
in 1968, Iraq's population was eight million.  Now it was 17 million.  
He said that the leadership was prepared to lose nine million. 
  In Jun 1990, Saddam told ABC's Diane Sawyer, "I am in every glass of 
milk an Iraqi child drinks."  Apparently, he meant that he was the 
father of modern Iraq, responsible for its development.  If Iraqis 
enjoyed anything good, it was because of him.   
  And this thinking sets the stage for the regime's extraordinary 
brutality and recklessness.  If Iraqis have anything, even life itself, 
it is because of Saddam, Uday & etc.  And if they lose it, it was 
Saddam, Uday, & etc. who gave it to them in the first place.

I. PART 1, EXCERPT OF INTERVIEW WITH AL JANABI
Q: How did you meet Uday?
A: In 1984, Uday wanted to establish a newspaper entitled "The Sporting
Ba'ath".  He requested the presence of three experts in the field of 
sports reporting and I was chosen.  That is the basis upon which I began 
working with Uday.
Q: How do you, as a journalist, explain "The Uday Phenomenon"?
A: Uday is a partial replica of Saddam.  The son follows the father
step-by-step.  If one goes back to Saddam's early history, one will 
discover that Saddam also focused on journalism.  In his early years, he 
took responsibility for the secret party newspaper.  One should also 
look at "The Uday Phenomenon" as a method of keeping control of the 
Iraqi public.  The press is one of the methods that Saddam uses for 
internally controlling Iraqis.  Saddam is currently not concerned with 
externally expanding his control, he is concerned with getting his house 
in order.  Once he gets his house in order, he will embark on steps 
abroad.  Who better to organise his information campaign internally than 
Uday?.
Q: When did Uday begin to gain prominence?
A: Around 1983 or 1984.  Uday's press empire began in 1984 and 
culminated in the establishment of "Babel Newspaper".  [In between, 
there were a number of other newspapers and magazines, mainly in sectors 
which Uday has hegemony over, such as Iraqi youth.]
Q: Is Uday a part of The Ba'ath Party?
A: Uday has his own powerbase.  However, outwardly he acts as if he is 
part of the party.  His goals are to use the party to further his 
ambitions.  For example, he is a member of the Central Youth Office of 
the Ba'ath Party, which enjoys the position of being a branch office of 
the party.  This will enable Uday, when the time comes, to launch his 
bid to become a member of the Regional Command of the Ba'ath Party [the 
highest Ba'ath Party Organ]. His goal is to become a member of the 
Regional Command.
Q: What would stop him?
A: Probably the only thing are differences with his father.  His father 
has different ambitions for Uday.  His father wants to prepare him step 
by step for something major.  He, on the other hand, has more immediate 
goals, such as amassing a fortune and collecting expensive cars ...
Q: Where does Uday stand in the struggle within the family?
A: Uday is at times the primary cause of the internal squabbles and at 
others a catalyst for such squabbles.  The divisions within Saddam's 
family are deep and profound.  Saddam is a member of the Al-bu-Nasr clan 
[from Tikrit], or more accurately the Al-bu-Omar branch of it.  This 
branch is split between the Al-Abdul Ghaffour sub-branch (of which 
Saddam is a member) and the Al-Khattab sub-branch of which Barazan 
[Saddam's half-brother] and Ibrahim al-Hassan [Saddam's step father and 
Barazan's father] are members.
  The split in Saddam's family began in 1983 because of Raghed, Saddam's
oldest daughter.  The first person who asked for her hand in marriage 
was a nephew of Barazan.  Barazan was the one who went to ask Saddam for 
her hand in marriage.  Saddam refused, which led to Barazan resigning 
from all public duties; at the time, he was Head of the Intelligence 
Directorate.  Uday was strongly opposed to this marriage as he was 
influenced by his mother, Sajida.  Sajida {Saddam's wife and first 
cousin] was also the sister of Barazan's wife, but the two sisters did 
not get along.  Barazan thought that Uday was behind Saddam's decision. 
When Raghed finally married the late Hussein Kamel, Barazan was enraged 
and the split was widened.  Sajida wanted Hussein Kamel, who at the time 
was a member of her security detail, to marry her daughter and preferred 
him to Barazan and the al-Khattab sub-branch.
  The split has continued and still has many repercussions, too many to
highlight here.
  Another source of the family split was Saddam's marriage to Samira
Shahbandar [his second wife].  Adnan Khairallah [Saddam's cousin,
brother-in-law (Saddam's brother) and former defense minister] succeeded 
in mediating the squabble that was caused by this marriage.  As you may 
know, Uday was against this marriage and killed Kamel Hanna Juju, his 
father's bodyguard and food taster.  Uday killed him because Kamel Hanna 
Juju acted as the liaison between Saddam and Samira Shahbandar.  It was 
a brutal murder.  I was present, as was Mrs. Susan Mubarak [President 
Mubarak of Egypt's wife], who cut her trip short as a result. Uday hit 
Kamel on the head with a stick.  Kamel collapsed in a pool of blood.  He 
died in hospital the next morning.  Uday hit Kamel publicly in front of 
people.
Q: Saddam has children from Samira Shahbandar, who are not in the 
limelight. Why?
A: Saddam has one son, Ali, from Samira Shahbandar.  He is thirteen 
years old.  He is a member of the board of an athletic club.  He is 
treated in a special manner by his father, with many servants and 
bodyguards.  The press does not focus on Ali because Uday does not want 
him to have any public role.  Even though he is a director of the 
largest athletic club in Baghdad, Uday refuses to have any publicity 
surrounding his role.  Uday hates him.  Uday cannot tolerate his brother 
Qusay, let alone Ali.
Q: It is said that Uday's relationship is not good with many members of 
his family, including Qusay.  Is that true?
A: It is Uday's nature to antagonise others.  Even before the attempted
assassination, Uday was a complex personality.  It has to do with his
upbringing.  Saddam personally took charge of bringing up his younger
brother Qusay.  Although Saddam also participated in bringing up Uday, 
he did not devote so much attention to him.  It was Uday's mother and 
her father [Khairallah Tulfah, Saddam's maternal uncle] who had the most
influence on him.  This is why we see Khairallah Tulfah's known traits 
in Uday, such as the love of money, the love for taking over other 
people's property, violence and extremism.  Uday obviously has some of 
his father's traits as well, but it is his maternal grandfather that 
seems to have influenced him as well.
Q: How is Uday's health now?
A: He is doing alright.  He cannot walk normally without the aid of 
walking sticks or crutches.  Doctors have infused new bones in his left 
leg, but his brain seems to have rejected them.
Q: Did the assassination attempt affect Uday's relationships, especially 
with his brother Qusay?
A: All official positions in Saddam's family are relative in nature and
controlled strictly by Saddam.  From my perspective, it seems the roles
given to Uday are greater than those given to Qusay.  Even though Qusay
controls the Special Security Services and the Republican Guard, Uday's
responsibilities, which include the youth and student organisations, the
press and the Martyrs of Saddam [Fedaiyee Saddam], are not minor and
demonstrate that he is preparing himself well for the assumption of more
power.
  The attempt on his life has seriously depressed Uday and has made him 
less trusting, especially towards Qusay.  The differences between the 
two brothers started in 1988, after the murder of Kamel Hanna Juju, 
because Saddam asked two individuals to collect information on Uday and 
the incident-Hussein Kamel and Qusay.  Hussein Kamel operated in a 
devious manner as he did not report all the information that came to his 
attention, especially those relating to Uday's business activities and 
sexual misdemeanors.  Qusay however reported all that came to his 
attention about Uday and did not hide anything.  Uday was angered by 
this, as he believed that Qusay was trying to ruin him.
  This happened again when Uday shot his uncle Watban [Saddam's 
half-brother and Barazan's full brother].  Saddam asked us in and 
informed us that Uday was finished and that we should disclose 
everything about him.  None of use dared say anything as we believed 
that it was a trap or at least a public attempt by Saddam to show that 
he is doing something against his son.
  It is therefore my opinion that the assassination attempt on Uday has
revived his political fortunes.  He had previously become isolated.
Q: When was Uday isolated and why?
A: In 1995, after he shot his uncle Watban.  Saddam wanted to teach him 
a lesson by isolating him.  The reason why Uday shot Watban was a result 
of a business conflict between Luay Khairallah Tulfah [Uday's maternal 
uncle and childhood friend and Sajida's brother] and one of Saddam's 
other half-brothers, with Watban becoming the victim.
  After the attempt on Uday's life, he was reinstalled in his previous
positions, from which he had been fired in 1995.
Q: Where were you when Uday was shot?
A: I was at the Olympic Committee headquarters when the assassination 
attempt took place.  I was watching the soccer game between Iraq and 
Thailand which was taking place in the United Arab Emirates.  Uday asked 
me to report to him the result by telephone.  It was Thursday night and, 
as is common on Thursday nights, Uday went to the Mansur neighborhood 
where he tried to pick up girls.  I tried reaching Uday by telephone on 
a number of occasions but could not get through.  I was told that he 
went to the Avicenna Hospital.  When I arrived there, I learned that he 
was shot.  The interesting point here is that the person who saved 
Uday's life by driving him to the hospital, the singer Ali al-Saher, 
received a death threat from Saddam personally in front of others.  I 
was waiting outside the hospital with Qusay when Saddam arrived in a 
helicopter.  He asked for Ali Saher, who was brought to him.  In front 
of us, Saddam told him: "If anything happens to Uday, I will cut you in 
pieces."  Saddam thought that al-Saher was behind the attempt.  The 
press tried to blame Iran but the truth is that Uday's actions make him 
a target for such an operation.  Any Iraqi knows that Uday goes to that 
specific location every Thursday night without any bodyguards.

II.  PART 2, EXCERPT OF INTERVIEW WITH AL JANABI
Q: Uday has a reputation for cars and women.  Is that true?
A: These are not rumours.  They are true.  He has a large number of
cars.  He stole around 160 cars from Kuwait.  You may not believe it 
when I tell you that Uday has 1300 luxury cars, such as Rolls Royces, 
Porsches, Ferraris, Range Rovers, Lincolns and others.
 Following Uday's shooting of Watban, Saddam tried to confiscate and
blow up Uday's cars in one garage.  But that garage contained only 13 
cars. Saddam did not know that Uday has several other garages,  I know 
of at least six more.
 Saddam feels helpless with Uday with regards to his womanising.
Also, if he forgives him for murdering people, how would kidnapping or
raping a woman be any worse.  His father, with all the intelligence and
security apparatuses at his command, knows everything about Uday's
womanising.
Q: How did Uday behave during the Gulf War?
A: The day before the air attacks [ie. 16 January 1991], Uday shaved
his head completely and donned his black army uniform and went to a 
frontline [Al-Nassiriyah in Southern Iraq].  He returned at around 4:30 
in the morning from al-Nassiriyah.  He was scared and panicking.  I was 
with him then. He did not go to his house or the allocated secure houses 
but went to the house of his friend Muhammed Qaraghuli in the Al-Mamun 
district of Baghdad.  He locked himself in a room and refused to see 
anybody, including me.  We waited for him for a full day, when he 
finally asked for me.  When I saw him, he seemed to be in a better frame 
of mind.  He said that he had not been afraid but was concerned above 
all about his family, whose whereabouts he did not know.
 He then moved to one of the secure houses in a tourist area [on an
island].  He continued to be afraid.  As the bombing continued, Uday 
began to feel more and more secure and began to regain control over the 
media.  He began to direct the media campaign and took it over from 
Latif Nussayif Jassem, the Minister of Information.  His control over 
the media was such that when his father decided to withdraw from Kuwait, 
he signed an order and asked for it to get publicised.  Even though the 
decision carried the presidential seal, the press was too afraid to 
publicise it without Uday's prior permission.  The editor of "Al- 
Jumhurriyah" tried to contact Uday to no avail to gain his permission. 
So he contacted me and I relayed the message to Uday, obtaining his 
approval.
Q: Did Uday have different views than those of his father with respect
to the Gulf War?
A: Yes.  According to Uday, his father committed three mistakes during
the Kuwait invasion and the Gulf War.  First, he made a mistake in 
releasing the hostages, or as they were called "our guests".  Second, 
Saddam should not have allowed the massing of allied troops in central 
Saudi Arabia. Saddam should have attacked them as they were building up. 
Third, Saddam should have captured the provinces in eastern Saudi 
Arabia, including the oil installations.  He would then have had 
leverage to blow them up if Iraq was attacked by the US.  I heard Uday 
personally pronounce these statements.
Q: Kuwait was looted.  Did Uday participate in this?
A: I have a report of all that Uday took from Kuwait.  He took
printing presses, cars, clothes, carpets, furniture, chandeliers, a 
fleet of Volvo cars, gold and jewellery.  He has no intention of ever 
returning them. In fact, he sold some of the material.  For example, he 
took the printing press of the Kuwaiti armed forces, which was brand 
new, and sold it to a Iraqi businessman.
Q: Uday seems to have played a big role in the Iraqi media sector,
especially in the developments in that sector, the establishment of new
organisation and the dismissal of ministers.  What was your view of 
Uday's involvement?
A: Uday's hegemony over the media sector and the information ministry
(as well as certain other ministries) is natural.  In fact, it is very 
easy. 
  There is only one law in Iraq and that is the law of Saddam Hussein 
and his children.  What applies to them does no apply to anybody else.  
Uday has been responsible for the dismissal of a number of ministers, 
including Hamed Hammadi, Abdul Ghani Abdul Ghaffour (ministers of 
information) and Nouri Faisal al-Shaher (minister of youth).  Uday 
ordered me to be critical of al-Shaher in "The Sporting Ba'ath".  
Another minister of youth who was dismissed by Uday, Abdul Fattah 
Mohammed Amin, who realised that he would be beheaded if he did not 
quickly leave the ministry.  In fact, in an effort to save himself, he 
suggested to Saddam that Saddam abolish the ministry of youth, which 
Saddam did.  In response, Uday founded the Olympic Committee. Uday 
ordered the dismissal of the former minister of information Abdul
Ghani Abdul Ghaffour because he the latter had the audacity to close the
"Babel Newspaper" for three days because it was in violation of Iraqi
publications law.  In fact, Uday commenced legal proceedings against him 
to recover ten million dinars for damages to the "Babel Newspaper" 
resulting from such closure.  Abdul Ghani Abdul Ghaffur misread Saddam's 
intentions with respect to Uday.  He thought that Saddam wanted to 
eliminate Uday and his empire and so took the necessary steps.
Q: What is Uday's position with respect to the sanctions and the
embargo?
A: Uday is the single largest beneficiary of the sanctions, since he
controls many facets of smuggling in Iraq.  He controls the smuggling of
whisky, tobacco, fertilizers, petrol and others.  His business interests
extend to Turkey, Iran and Jordan.  Uday has trading links with 
Iranians, through intermediaries in Paris.  I do not want to disclose 
who they are because they are friends.  The Paris link also has other 
functions such as liaising with businessmen in Lebanon and with one of 
the Kurdish leaders.
Q: What is the role of "The Uday Foundation" in the trading and
smuggling of oil?
A: It is the principal player in the trading of petrol.  Uday is the
primary smuggler of oil in Iraq.  he obtains the petrol from the 
Ministry of Trade, with the approval of the minister of trade, Muhammed 
Mahdi Saleh. Uday indirectly owns about fifty vessels that are used for 
smuggling oil through the Gulf, using Iranian frontmen.  He pays 
approximately one hundred dollars for each ton exported.  In addition, 
Uday uses a fleet of trucks to smuggle oil to Turkey, coordinating his 
activities with certain Kurds. 
  Uday has strong contacts with particular individuals in Kurdish 
parties.  Uday has told me on a number of occcasions that he can 
influence events in the north.  He has met many Kurdish leaders, 
including those who have historically cooperated with Baghdad.  All 
these oil smuggling operations are for Uday's account and not for the 
benefit of the central government.
  Uday has made hundreds of millions of dollars from these smuggling
operations.  The vessels are not registered in Uday's name; some are
registered in the name of [Asil Tabra], who coordinates their movement 
with agents in Dubai, Damascus and Amman.  Since last year, Uday has 
also sold oil to local merchants who themselves take care of smuggling 
the oil out through their own contacts.
  Some of these companies are registered in my name, which has caused
Uday problems after my defection.  For example, I won stakes in the  the 
"Aba' Company for Livestock" and the "Iman Company for Meats and 
Chicken".
  I estimate that the sanctions have greatly benefitted Uday. It is
in his interest for the embargo to continue.  He has also gained control 
of all aid going to Iraq from the United Arab Emirates.  He stores this 
aid in warehouses owned by the Olympic Committee and only distributes a 
small portion of it, always in front of the press.  Uday then arranges 
for this aid to be sold in stores, and gets the proceeds.
  Uday is also one of the parties who that control the U.S. dollar/ 
dinar exchange rate and the smuggling of dollars overseas.  Because
of the large number of U.S. dollars he has, he can affect the movement 
of the exchange rate at any given time to the benefit of his commercial
operations.

III. PART 3, EXCERPT OF INTERVIEW WITH AL JANABI
Q: Where does the Martyrs of Saddam (Fedaiyee Saddam) lie in the Iraqi 
military and security landscape?  Does it operate independently from the 
military and security forces, in parallel with such forces or as part of 
such forces?
A: The Martyrs of Saddam are armed militias that have been specially 
trained by army officers and Iraqi military experts, some of whom have 
been trained overseas, such as in Sandhurst.  The role of the Martyrs of 
Saddam is to gain control of key points in Baghdad in the event that 
there is an uprising against the regime.  The Martyrs of Saddam have 
completed military exercises in this regard during which they have 
surrounded and contained three particular neighborhoods/suburbs in 
Baghdad.  These neighborhoods/suburbs (Al-Thawra, Al-Sha'alah and 
Al-Iskan) were targetted because of the regime's view that any unrest or 
popular uprising would start in those areas, because they are not loyal 
to Saddam as they are populated by Shi'ites.  Each member of the Martyrs 
of Saddam has benefits that are above those granted to other members of 
the military.  For example, each member gets a monthly salary in excess 
of that granted to a colonel in the armed forces.  The Martyrs of
Saddam take orders only from Uday and not other official has any say in 
any matters relating to them.  Other than the military objectives 
outlined above, the Martyrs of Saddam is responsible for the protection 
of Uday.
  Part of the Martyrs of Saddam are also responsible for the protection 
of the family of Khairallah Tulfah [Saddam's wife's family] and the 
special buildings and locations that Uday controls.
Q: If I gave you the names of officials, for example Tariq Aziz, Abd 
Humud, Arshad Yassin (head of Saddam's security), Uday and Qusai ... Who 
is the most powerful among them, especially with respect to Unscom?
  I would say that Uday is the most powerful, then Qusay, then Abd Hamid 
Humud (the husband of Saddam's sister, his personal secretary and 
personal pilot).  Arshad Yassin is no longer in the circle of influence 
after it was discovered that he was involved in the smuggling abroad of 
Iraqi antiquities.  If this accusation had been made against any other 
Iraqi, he would have been immediately executed, but Arshad is a close 
relative of Saddam (married to the sister of Saddam's wife) and so he 
was just dismissed.  At the end of the list is Tariq Aziz.
Q: But Tariq Aziz is responsible for international relations, especially 
the issue of the weapons of mass destruction and Unscom?
A: Believe me when I tell you that Tariq Aziz, who defends the regime 
publicly, does not know what is going on and that the regime hides many 
important things from him.  Tariq Aziz knows that weapons of mass 
destruction are moved around from place to place, but he knows nothing 
of locations or where material is hidden.  Only four people know of such 
locations-Uday, Qusay, Abd Humud and Roukan Rzouqi.
Q: How was Hussein Kamel killed in Baghdad and how true is the official 
story of his death?
A: The official story is far from the truth.  The decision to eliminate 
Hussein Kamel was made after his return to Baghdad.  It was not decided 
ahead of time.  When he returned to Baghdad, Hussein Kamel was asked to 
go to the presidential palace.  Saddam asked that both he and his 
brother divorce their wives (Saddam's daughters), but they refused.  The 
decision to eliminate them took place after their refusal to divorce.  
In addition to Uday, Saddam had asked a prominent judge to attend the 
meeting with Hussein Kamel in order to prepare the divorce papers.  
After his refusal, Hussein Kamel went to his palace in the Al-Doura 
area.  I was at the palace at the time but I stayed outside the meeting 
room.  I waited for Uday to leave the room and he told me the details. I 
was also with Uday when he went to meet Hussein Kamel and his entourage 
at the Jordanian border.  I was not standing close to the grou and so 
cannot confirm the rumour that Uday slapped Hussein Kamel.  Uday was 
very angry with Hussein Kamel and his pronouncements when in Jordan.  
However, he used to say that his primary concerns were his sisters and 
their return.  When his sisters returned, he no longer cared for Hussein 
Kamel and was not an initial proponent of his execution.  However, after 
Hussein Kamel refused to divorce Uday's sister, Uday became a supporter 
of the decision to execute Hussein Kamel and his brother.
  The decision to execute Hussein Kamel came from Saddam personally.  
Saddam had also decided that the execution should be carried out by 
Hussein Kamel's cousins in the Al-Majid clan.  It was the duty of Uday, 
Qusay and Ali Hassan al-Majid to oversee the executions.  Uday told me 
this expressly.  The decision was Saddam's, as who else would dare take 
such a decision? 
Q: Did you ever suffer Uday's wrath?  If yes, what were the reasons?
A: Yes, he has punished me on a number of occasions.  After 1991, he 
sent me to jail on more than one occasion.  Prior to that he used to 
have me arrested only.
 The reasons for my arrest mainly related to my lack of agreeing with 
him on his commercial dealings.  There were other minor reasons that 
were well known by people in Iraq.
  On one occasion Uday wanted to severely punish me.  When I was editor 
in chief of the "Babel Newspaper", he had asked me to write a front page 
piece criticising Ahmad Hussain, who was at the time the prime minister 
and who is now head of the presidential office.  I wrote the editorial 
piece but did not put my name to it.  Saddam got angry and blamed Uday 
and so Uday wanted to lay the blame on others.  He did not tell Saddam 
that the piece was written upon his orders.  Uday had me arrested and 
sent to the Al-Radhwaniyeh prison compound.  I was badly tortured there. 
You can still see the effects on my back, as I was subjected to constant 
beating by electrical wire cables.  This time he had me tortured in a 
much more severe way than the previous tortures I had been subjected to.
  On another occasion, when I was head of the Youth Radio and 
Television, Uday punished me for a very minor reason.  I ordered that 
the car of one of the newscasters be fixed after an accident and that 
the costs be paid for by the person who caused the accident.  Uday got 
mad and ordered my arrest.  I was sent to the special security services 
compound in the Al-Radhwaniyeh compound for 19 hours and was tortured in 
a manner that I thought no human can tolerate.  I had not imagined such 
sadism and cruelty to exist; I had not known that people can enjoy 
torturing others.  I was beaten by electrical wire cables; they also 
kept sticking large needles into me.
Q: Was this treatment the reason that you left Iraq?
A: It was one of the reasons.  The main reason was that I supervised a
cigarette importing transaction worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
During negotiations with the other side, Uday accused me of leaning 
towards the interests of the other side as I came up with a proposal on 
which we could have reached an agreement.
Q: Have you seen Uday personally torture or kill people, apart from 
Kamel Hanna Juju and Uday's uncle Watban?
A: Yes, I have seen Uday torture many people.  I saw him torture his 
previous chief of staff Saud Samurra'i (who now lives in Jordan) in an
extraordinarily harsh manner.  He did this in a particular prison.  Uday 
has prisons everywhere you go.  He has two prisons in the presidential 
palace, a prison in the armory, a prison in the Olympic Committee and a 
prison at his farm in the Al-Radhwaniyeh compound.
  Uday also killed his friend Muhammed Qaraghuli [previously mentioned 
when Uday stayed with him during the initial bombing campaign during the 
Gulf War] in a particularly brutal manner.  He forced three bottles of 
gin down his throat by continuously beating him.  Qaraghuli passed out. 
Uday then ordered that he be on a merry-go-round at an amusement park.  
Qaraghuli fell from it onto a metal stake that went through his head.
Q: Let me ask a final question.  What does Uday think of Iraq?  he does 
he conceive of the country?  What does he want for the country?
A:  To Uday, Iraq is a milking cow.  He lives in it in a very privileged 
way and takes anything he wants from it at any time.  Like his father, 
he thinks Iraqis are no more than slaves.  I am not saying this because 
I am against the regime but that is the reality.  I see pictures of the 
starving children and how they are dying.  Has any member of the 
presidential family suffered (or died) as a result of the embargo?  
Iraqis are now living under bridges, the educated ones selling their 
books to buy food.  Every single Iraqi wants to leave in order to be 
able to secure food.  However, Uday constantly says: The Iraqis were 
hungry people and it was we who fed them.